thrill of the chaseMr. Fenn,

Assuming standard day at both KSAF and the atmosphere immediately above (within 500’ AGL) the bronze chest, 110 IAS, no wind, and uncorrected for magnetic variation, what heading would I turn to after departure from KSAF, how long shall I fly on that heading, and what MSL altitude shall I climb (or descend) to as to offer the bronze chest a fly-by at 100’ AGL?

Recent study revealed I’ll be above 5000 MSL, and greater than 8.25 miles (statute?…nautical?) from Santa Fe proper.  Thoroughly enjoyed ‘The Thrill of the Chase’.

Respectfully, J.T., LtCol, USAF (retired), Fighter Pilot, School Teacher, Wannabe Treasure Hunter, Cedar Park, Texas

 

I would do a 180, land at KSAF, drink lots of coffee, and don’t let the flight surgeon find you. Good luck sir. f

 

 

The above Featured Question is also Weekly Words from Forrest for August 5th, 2016. The complete list is here:

Weekly Words From Forrest Fenn

and the link to Featured Questions is here:

Featured Questions (category)

Best of luck with the Thrill of the Chase and all that you seek! Treasure the Adventure!

 

114 Comments

      1. Honestly, I think J.T. is a bit of a, erm,xxx(edit) who didn’t know the ROE and was trying to get in on the Chase. Can’t blame a newbie for trying, you never know what might happen, I guess. But with an approach like that, one could only say he’s no Air Force fighter pilot, private pilot at best, or at worst, a sailor…
        Mike
        Wannabe Air Force Fighter Pilot (retired)

        Mike W

  2. If in 500 years all a person has is the poem, and no back story ie they don’t know “in the rocky mountains north of santa fe” or that there are 9 clues or that there is a book called TTotC etc. Could a person reasonably just use the words in the poem and find your treasure chest?

    Thank you,
    John

    JohnR

    2. John,

      In my opinion, the Poem, TTOTC and The Chase are extremely personal to Master Fenn. Don’t you find it odd that there’s no title to the Poem? The Poem and the TTOTC are inseparable and the Treasure is hidden in the like.

      Happy Hunting,
      Mike

      Mike Forni

      1. I found it interesting that in the Royal Air Force (R.A.F.)…AGL (AnGeL) is slang for altitude in thousands and can be used instead of/before changing to MSL.

        “Up in the air, where the angels fly” intrigues me..
        .
        Also pops up in research is Anne Graham Lotz who founded AnGeL Ministries…Hmmm…

        Ellen

  6. Some birds thrive at high altitude but hummingbirds usually experience a loss of power and maneuverability at higher elevations.

    “The power margin decreases at higher elevation, primarily because the stroke amplitude of the wing increases to account for the thinner air,” added coauthor Robert Dudley, a professor of integrative biology at UC Berkeley and Altshuler’s advisor when both were at the University of Texas, Austin. “If the bird can only flex its wings through a maximum of 180 degrees, that leaves less power available for other things, like ascending and chasing.”

    http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2004/12/16_hummers.shtml

    23kachinas

  10. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_day

    The term standard day is used throughout meteorology, aviation, and other sciences and disciplines as a way of defining certain properties of the atmosphere in a manner which allows those who use our atmosphere to effectively calculate and communicate its properties at any given time. For example, a temperature deviation of +8 °C means that the air at any given altitude is 8 °C (14 °F) warmer than what standard day conditions and the measurement altitude would predict, and would indicate a lower density altitude. These variations are extremely important to both meteorologists and aviators, as they strongly determine the different properties of the atmosphere.

    For example, on a cool day, an airliner might have no problem safely departing a medium-altitude runway, but on a warmer day, the density altitude might require a higher true airspeed, which would require more acceleration, and more runway. The pilot may be forced to reduce fuel or cargo, or even add an intermediate fuel stop, delaying the flight arrival time. In meteorology, departure from standard day conditions is what gives rise to all weather phenomena, including thunderstorms, fronts, clouds, even the heating and cooling of our planet.

    For Pilots: At sea level, Altimeter:29.92 in/Hg at 15 °C (59 °F) The “standard day” model of the atmosphere is defined at sea level, with certain present conditions such as temperature and pressure. But other factors, such as humidity, further alter the nature of the atmosphere, and are also defined under standard day conditions:

    Density (ρ): 1.225 kg/m³ (0.00237 slug/ft3)
    Pressure (p): 1013.25 hPa (14.7 lb/ in2)
    Temperature (T): 15 °C (59 °F)
    Viscosity (μ): 17.3 µPa·s (3.62 × 10−7 lb s/ft2)[1]

    The first three properties are usually referred as “standard day” conditions, which the viscosity aspect is largely ignored throughout the aviation community. However, viscosity, which is affected by humidity levels, plays a key role in aerodynamic drag, which is why it is a key component of standard day conditions. Because it is a key component of drag, it affects the amount of fuel burned per unit of distance travelled.

    But then, of course, he may have meant for us to read that as “Sandra Day”?

    Cockroach

  11. Respectfully, J.T., LtCol, USAF (retired), Fighter Pilot, School Teacher, Wannabe Treasure Hunter, Cedar Park, Texas

    Mr. Fenn, cough cough its Forrest Fenn Major USAF/RT

    Could even be LTColonel since the Air Force bumps you up a rank in retirement. Maybe Fenn wrote this himself…..

    Otherwise JT Professional addressing………Acknowledges the service and dedication made by another.

    Apparently it’s all about you:)

    Ricky Nowak

      1. I think you meant shot instead of shoot, but nonetheless, we see right through you. Another “Door Gunner”, in the Chase. I try to be respectful, but my patience wears thin with people who “think they know”. Better pack your flashlight and sammich, cuz ya got a lond ride ahead. Oh, and please respect your elders, as I was always taught. We can learn so much from them, if we just listen!

        Chesney

        1. You have 2 pilots that have never meant before and you have one trying to up the other.

          Take that up in the Air boys…….

          Probably Fenn wasn’t slighted……….Wouldn’t want to fly with Lt Col Jack Ass……..Reminds me of a Robin Olds story.

          Ricky Nowak

          1. Good Lord hope you are typing from a phone like me. I recently ran out of “Stupid Fuel”, to help build your fire. If you are on a computer, may I suggest spell check and something they don’t have on them… Manners! “Common Sense is an Uncommon Trait”. Kenny

            Chesney

                1. Watch the stupid comments Chesney…………..Either this guy is the real thing or it’s Fenn……….

                  No wonder why you guys can’t find a chest…………

                  Ricky Nowak

                2. Maybe I am the “Real Thing”, but not being disrespectful… am I. I don’thave anything but kindness towards others. I am not Mr. Fenn, but thinl you should apologize for what you said, thus far…

                  Chesney

                3. See here is the thing “Shortstuff”, I have been a Truck Driver for 16 years, and this is what people like to do on the CB Radio. Does this offend me? Not in any way. Am I scared of you, nope! I simply asked you to be respectful to Mr. Fenn! Mind your manners, Please and Thank You , Sir!

                  Chesney

                4. You mean Major Fenn:) You gave me credit for standing up for him and now you have an issues with me for wanting to find out if we have Friendlies or Bandits……..

                  Want to see if Lt Col JT is a real person………….If so we have a Friendly if not a Bandit……………

                  We’ll go from there………Stop complaining Chesney and die like a real Aviator……..Stay off the Radio:)

                  Ricky Nowak

                6. No I’m not saying that to Fenn…………..Felt Lt Col JT was disrespectful and out of line with Major Fenn

                  He owns him some type of explanation…………That was one rude SOB Lt Col.

                  Or he doesn’t exist and Fenn/Jenny or who ever invited him……..We been playing these games for a few months Chesney……..

                  Ricky Nowak

                7. Now now Ricky!

                  I do apologize for my son’s rude behavior.

                  We gave him the “snip” at birth because we wanted a daughter. Little did we know he would turn out this way

                  The kids at school nicknamed him “Dickless Ricky” and the rest is history.

                  Ricky, if you do not behave I’m going to have to take the candy away!

                  Ricky's Mom

                8. Now we have you:) Jenny would have you IP…………..You have to be a Moron……..Do you have nay idea what I would pay to find out who you are?

                  Jenny how much cash do you want??? Your don;t see this person wanting to give you anything besides being a parasite………..

                  Thanks

                  Rick

                  Ricky Nowak

                9. Rick, I can assure you that it was not me, that wrote the “Ricky’s Mom” post. When I saw it this morning, I suspeted that you wrote it being a “smart aleck”. As I stated in my lasy posts, I am respectful of others, and would not write such a thing. Good Day, Sir.

                  Chesney

                10. Chesney:) I know it’s not you their from over at CC

                  Thank you for taking your time and consideration thou in addressing this matter:)

                  Good Day to you to Sir:)

                  Ricky

                  P.S.

                  Without Transportation Specialists America stops working:)

                  Ricky Nowak

  13. Thank you Jenny, J.T., and Mr. Fenn for this week’s “Featured Question and Weekly Words”. I greatly appreciate it. This one has me scratching my head a bit. Most of the information goes way above. I wonder which runway J.T. is considering taking off, why not account for magnetic variation, and does J.T. really think Mr. Fenn is going to give him directions to the treasure chest? I would wish him good luck on the latter. 🙂 Still going to think more about this one. I’m sure I’m missing plenty.

    pdenver

    1. JT is actually asking for the true heading. If it was the magnetic heading, then it would differ from departure to arrival if the distance is significant. A true heading would allow him to take a precise bearing from Santa Fe airport. The question implies departing from the middle of the airport, thus the specific runway is unimportant (This is pilot talk).
      The standard day implies the altitude on the altimeter would read a precise altitude and would not have to be corrected for atmospheric effects. (Geography stuff)
      If the heading or bearing is known and the precise altitude, he could subtract 100 feet to get the answer. The time is then converted to a distance using 110 knots since there is not wind (air speed indicators measure speed through the air so wind would affect the true airspeed). There is a slight flaw in the question which I assume is was trying to cover with standard day, since the true airspeed increases from the indicated at approx 4 kts per 1000 feet. (flight computers will give a precise number). If one assumes the 110 kts of indicated airspeed is 110 kts of true airspeed (which it is not), then a conversion to miles can be made if the time of flight is know, the known altitude could correct the indicated airspeed to the true airspeed and that number would allow a precise speed for the calculation. Thus he could determine the precise location of the treasure with the true heading and true airspeed converted to distance (d=rt). Of course it is illegal to fly as low as 100 feet above ground anywhere unless taking off or landing.

      The Wolf

      2. Hello Wolf. Thank you for responding and trying to explain this information to me, although, most still seem to be well above my head. This reminds me of one of Mr. Fenn’s story in TFTW, “heading north,” page 210, and in the photo it’s written “heading south”. Not sure if this post is suppose to have any correlation between the two. More things I need to think about.

        pdenver

        1. You are welcome Pdenver, inthechaseto,
          The explanation I gave maybe a little to detailed and difficult to understand if one is not familiar with flying. To state it in the simplest of terms, If JT got the answer he was looking for he could have calculated a true heading/bearing or angle on a map to the treasure, an exact distance from Santa Fe airport and the exact altitude of the treasure chest. Of course, FF being a pilot, he understood the question and evaded it in his normal sense of humour.

          Then again there are always interesting parts in his statements, I take everything he says to heart, for not everything he says is kidding around.

          The Wolf

      3. >>Of course it is illegal to fly as low as 100 feet above ground anywhere unless taking off or landing.

        Not exactly true. See FAR part 91.119:

        (c) Over other than congested areas. An altitude of 500 feet above the surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure.

        Also, he had a strange way of asking for a True heading, why not just say what True heading do I need. I think it’s also possible to interpret his question as: “which magnetic heading do I need to fly (assuming 0 mag declination)”, since most pilots fly magnetic headings, not True headings. However, I agree that he’s just trying to get a True heading from Fenn.

        Milan

  14. Forrest, you absolutely crack me up. Thank you so much. I needed this today!

    Jenny and Forrest, thank you for all you willingly do to make the lives of complete strangers and friends a bit better and more interesting. Hats off to you two. Well done.

    Twingem

  15. Thank you, as always, Jenny and Forrest. Also thank you “J.T., LtCol, USAF (retired), Fighter Pilot, School Teacher, Wannabe Treasure Hunter, Cedar Park, Texas” You’re question is a bit technical for my not so technical brain. So many directions to go with this one. Hmmm, Searchers have been within 200′ but you cannot do a fly-by at 100′? Does Forrest mean 180 as in turn around or does he mean he’d do a fly-by at 180′ instead of 100′? That would inch us closer by 20′. Probably best that no one follows me down that rabbit hole. I’m the Queen of Poor Execution, not the Queen of Bunnies.

    Ramona Queen of Poor Execution

    1. Hello Ramona Queen of Poor Execution. You may have something. He did say, ‘I would do a 180,’ or ‘I would do a 180, land at KSAF…’. Also, thinking of 180, I can imagine a sunup and sundown scenario, too. Perhaps a rainbow? Then we’re given “standard day” which would be 24 hours, which reminds me of a circle or rotation. Many possibilities to consider and there’s probably more. Or, it could be a KISS. 🙂

      pdenver

  16. of note….Cedar Park, Texas is in Williamson, County. William-son.

    Just outside of Round Rock, Texas. Slick.
    and just a few miles from Pflugerville, Texas.

    Lots to fish with in this note to/from ff…me thinks, me thinks.

    La Cucaracha

  17. I would say this is a significant clue (for some). If you fly over at 100′ AGL (Above Ground Level), you will likely be DOA (Dead On Arrival) because the surrounding mountains will be unavoidable. FF interpretation IMHO, “Turn your aircraft around and save your life!”

    LMN

  18. Forrest, did you have a Cessna 680?

    TAOS (I-TAOS) is a Cessna 680 aircraft registration number. Fly TAOS means you flew your plane to the special spot, local airport.. Dal thinks that you sold that plane prior to hiding it however. Care to set the record straight?

    Thanks,
    -C

    Passenger

  19. The only line that caught my attention was,” Thoroughly enjoyed ‘The Thrill of the Chase’.

    LtCol J.T. could be saying that he “Thoroughly enjoyed READING ‘the Thrill of the Chase’.

    OR – – – Is there significance in using the past tense (enjoyed) ‘The Thrill of the Chase’? – – – as
    if the chase is over….Interesting.

    JD

    JD

    3. Nice catch, JD. Thoroughly enjoyed – yet is a wannabe treasure hunter. Does not match unless he just read the TTOTC book. As if the chase is over….wonder. What about the 180 turn around. I wish I could do a 180 because the weather is nicer. I doubt it, though.

      Crow

  21. With all due respect I Thank You JT, Mrs. Kyle and Mr. Fenn,
    Oh what a doosey these words are. My head is spinning like an unbalanced top in an 8 point earthquake. Knowing the necessary I Qs for flying, it’s AA for me from now on. Time to take in some star bucks and ponder which direction the doc isn’t. You can take this one whichever your float chooses to drift. Yep, this is pretty far fetched for a near sighted searcher and reminds me of when I took my SAT hungover with a slide rule. I’ll try and straighten up my flight pattern and post later in my normal elementary speech pattern. Oh what a doozy these words are.

    Strawshadow

      1. Maybe, but what does “close proximity” mean? Forrest said that in response to people walking down trails and looking around for the “Blaze” off said trail. This is something that’s bothered me for a while, that people are assuming said trail is supposed to be much farther away than, say, 100′.
        I’m not saying that it’s that close, either, just sayin’.

        By the way, Chesney, there’s something I’ve wanted to ask you for a while now.
        In Forrest’s post titled “Batter At Plate”,
        https://mysteriouswritings.com/featured-question-and-weekly-words-from-forrest-fenn-batter-at-plate/
        the question was asked by someone named “Dusty Rose Treasury”.
        And you posted:
        Chesney says:
        June 3, 2016 at 11:03 am
        “Thank you Dusty Rose Treasury, Ms. Kile, and most of all… Master Fenn, for the answer to my question. Stay safe all and hope everyone is having a blast at Fennboree!!!!! The ticks are terrible this year!!! Best of luck to all, whatever you seek!”

        Did you send in that question using that name, “Dusty Rose Treasury”?
        Or did Forrest or someone else change the name to that?

        Buckeye Bob

  24. E* has asked me:
    “Is ff saying in this MW post that someone on Google Earth was the closest (maybe 200′ above the Bronze chest in Satellite View)? ”

    That is an interesting question and I would say that is a possible response if someone sent him a 200 foot view from above of the chest (Google Earth). It even hints to the “look quickly down” theme. That also means that a the person could be 200 feet above of below the chest vertically while physically searching.

    There is an interesting connection between 200 feet (how close as a searcher has been) and Mr. Fenn’s use of the word “precisely” which means precision. Under IFR (instrument flight rules) in cloud or obscuring visibility, the lowest an aircraft can fly to the ground on an IFR “precision” approach is 200 feet for a Cat I precision approach (100 feet for a cat II precision approach) before they must transition to visual cues for landing, otherwise they must “go around” or “overshoot”.

    The Wolf

  25. I wonder if “magnetic variation” is a subtle hint that a metal detector would be an aid in finding the chest.
    Forrest has said that you don’t need any tools, but maybe a detector would still be a benefit?
    I’m not planning on using one, I’m just wondering.
    A lot might depend on how the chest is hidden, I suppose.

    Buckeye Bob

    1. Hello buckeye bob, in context it sounds like “uncorrected magnetic variation” might refer to magnetic north as opposed to true North, i.e. per Recent post 110 SE. In short distances it wouldn’t matter much, but if we’re talking about hundreds of miles it would make A big difference. As for the metal detector, I once heard him say something to the effect of “A metal detector would only help if you’re right on top of it.” Sounds a little suspicious to me. As for myself, I’m looking forward to better weather in the Rockies.

      Spade

  26. With my luck, if I were to use a metal detector it would probably only locate one of my lost or stolen flies. I was in competition with a tree with a momma bird, a chipmunk, a few ducks, branches, weeds, etc. Then, again perhaps finding a good fly would be a good thing. I doubt that I would find Indulgence with the metal detector, though. Failed at that a long time ago 🙂

    Crow

        1. Chesney, it seemed to me that there was something to the effect that the person within 12′ would be searching for the chest, which is different from someone else as to the “looking for” part. But I’m not sure about this.
          Your last sentence is a good point.
          Forrest also said that the person who finds it won’t be someone who just stumbles onto it, didn’t he? But I may be taking him out of context.

          Buckeye Bob

          1. He said “Nobody is going to stumble on the chest, they’re going to have to follow the clues in the poem and go to it. Nothing about it will be by accident”, pretty darn close out of memory and context. Maybe Mr.Fenn will chime in with his Stamp of Approval! 🙂 Doubtful, but stranger things have happened.

            Chesney

            2. Chesney, I think that ‘following the clues’ is a lot harder that it might seem even if the clues are understood. Perhaps the bike youtube is an example of knowing how something is supposed to work and yet not really getting it to work.

              Crow

  29. Out of the night that covers me,
    Black as the pit from pole to pole,
    I thank whatever gods may be for my unconquerable soul.
    In the fell clutch of circumstance I have not winced nor cried aloud.
    Under the bludgeonings of chance my head is bloody, but unbowed.
    Beyond this place of wrath and tears
    Looms but the horror of shade,
    And yet the menace of the years
    Finds, and shall find me,
    Unafraid.
    It matters not how straight the gate,
    How charged with punishments the scroll,
    I am the Master Of My Fate:
    I Am The Captain Of My Soul.
    Invictus

    Chesney

    1. You just gotta see a piece of yourself in these words. and if not maybe you do indeed deserve a second chance…

      From the first time I heard the beginning of this poem about a year ago I had to do a google search to find the rest.

      JL

  32. You folks are all pretty awesome, and awesomely deep-thinking, I have (hopefully) learned somewhat from your comments here in response to Mr. Fenn’s sharing… however, the requirements of trying to put together the remnants of a screwed-up life into some sort of functional pattern, lame as it might end up, means I won’t have the time to continue reading all you fine folks’ enjoyment and all of the ‘Thrill of the Chase.’ It sounds like there was a lot of enjoyment had by all over the early part of the summer.

    I know, I never really posted anything here (or anywhere, to be honest), so y’all don’t even know me… But I did want to thank you for the education I’ve gotten here, just reading the things you all have posted, truly I have learned much. And thank you Jenny, for making and maintaining these “TTOTC” pages, and Mr. Tenn for the treasure hunt that has given pleasure to so many people. (I’d try direct email, but don’t have that access – besides, I’ll bet he gets tons of emails every day, huh?)

    Regards to all,
    H.A.

    H.A.

  33. Oops, I meant Mr. Fenn — I truly despise autocorrect! Please excuse my lack of proofreading, and doesn’t it just figure the blasted phone would misspell the name of the man for whom I have the greatest respect!? 🙁
    H.A.

    H.A.

  34. 110 IAS. I am not an aviator by any means and had to do a little research but I believe there is only one aircraft that can fly comfortably at that rate over lengthy periods of time. Let’s just say the photo does not fit the bill.

    Another consumed explorer

  38. Searching, searching… would like nothing more than to do a 180, but we are down to our LAST DOLLAR! You know what they say, happiness doesn’t buy money…

    Sorry we did not “SEE” you while searching. Live and learn, or die stupid. We feel pretty stupid. We can’t turn around, unless of course you could send some gas money to wal-mart

    Kee Muncaster

  39. Searching, searching… would like nothing more than to do a 180, but we are down to our LAST DOLLAR! You know what they say, happiness doesn’t buy money…

    Sorry we did not “SEE” you while searching. Live and learn, or die stupid. We feel pretty stupid. We can’t turn around, unless of course you could send some gas money to wal-mart.

    Kee Muncaster

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