Featured Question with Forrest: Capitalization Rules

Q mark 2Mr. Fenn, Have the rules of capitalization been properly followed throughout the entire poem? ~ ChicagoDave

 

Whose Rules, ChicagoDave?f

 

 

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257 Responses

  1. Jenny Kile says:

    lol……love this answer….or should I say Question……

    You keep us chasing, Forrest. Thank you for that!!!!

  2. William says:

    Whose is a possessive of “who”, Now I hardly ever use the correct spelling or grammar when writing but Forrest is up to par when it comes to that but using that guidelines I would consider his mistakes to be deliberate!

  3. Carolyn says:

    Grammar Queen, are you saying that the B in Brown is not capitalized for being a proper name, but is capitalized for another reason?

    • No, she is saying that the B in Brown is not capitolized for being a proper name, but is capitolized for another reason.

      • E* says:

        Grammar King and Queen – Are you making a reference kinf of like this one,…from Back to the Future II?:

        Loser with a capital “L”

        Ergo:

        Brown with a capital “B”

        Yes,…I am referring to a large, looming male Grizzly Bear! 🙂

      • E* says:

        Grammar King and Queen (and Astree!): Have any of you considered the elegant inclusion of an acrostic in Forrest’s poem?:

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acrostic

        “The poem Behold, O God!, by William Browne,[14] can be considered a complex kind of acrostic. In the manuscript, some letters are capitalized and written extra-large, non-italic, and in red, and the lines are shifted left or right and internally spaced out as necessary to position the red letters within three crosses that extend through all the lines of the poem.”

        I am partial to the one by E.A. Poe in that link above. And I like that William Browne spelled HIS name with an “e” on the end,…just like Eric Sloane did. 🙂

        • astree says:

          E*

          yes, re: having considered acrostics.

          Some examples are ….

          ANP (Arches National Park) as liens first letters in verse 2
          .. tO thE golD … DEO
          END . Ever Drawing Nigh (an anacrostic)

          quite a few more ..

          Here’s a good one, I give a few intepretations ..

          look at the first letters of four chapters in “The Thrill of the Chase” beginning on p. 50

          MOAS

          https://translate.google.com/#gl/en/moas … now, you know what a “mill” is, right ?
          https://translate.google.com/#gl/en/MOAS

          midwife, in the middle of the book

          taking this into the French, is ” sage femme”

          be well,
          astree

          astree

          (to answer your OTHER recent post … NO … I’m not, but wouldn’t mind being)

        • astree says:

          e*

          What Is Inanimate

          is that a question or statement
          .

        • E* says:

          Astree – You wrote:

          “END . Ever Drawing Nigh (an anacrostic)”

          Yes,…and I think that “Ever” refers to Eric Sloane (the one with the “E” on the END of his name,…and the one with the REAL first name, that begins with an “E”,…Everard). See: the drawing,…with the “E” at the END,…on the far left.

          • astree says:

            E*

            Evard is big in Texas and indiana. I can see how background research (and The Thrill of the Chase) would help ‘guide’ to that conclusion. However, as a peom purist, I tend away from those sort of connections.

            astree

        • astree says:

          E*

          re: acrostic, I thought of you when seeing this energy drink – something that should keep one from falling asleep

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_Energy_Drink

          and especially liked the “AS” at the end of Carlburg Breweries.
          .
          (marketing dept. might need to look at that name again, same with that Blur-ray technnology 🙁 )

          astree

          • E* says:

            Astree – Since we are discussing Forrest’s capitalization rules,…namely the parts of The Poem like, “home of Brown”,…and “no place for the meek”,…and you mentioned that Bat-tery Energy Drink (with the plus sign for the logo):

            http://www.batterydrink.com/2015/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/no_cal_v3.jpg

            I thought I would share that I found a digital solar-powered panel,…at the base of a tall post,…that housed a nest of three Ospreys,…on the property of the camp,…where I stayed while on The Chase. The owner of the camp said that panel was previously being used to study bats,…but had since been disconnected. And I found a deceased bat, later,…in my camping spot near there. What is interesting,…is that depending on which resource I checked,…the little brown bat,…and the big brown bat,…are sometimes capitalized,…and sometimes not. But I think Forrest wouldn’t have capitalized that “Brown” descriptive,…unlless maybe one tormented him while he secreted the Bronze Chest in a cave?:

            http://www.nps.gov/yell/learn/nature/batinfo.htm

            And because of your plus sign (or crux immissa?) reference,…and that you may have been tacitly calling me a not-so-meek Energizer Bunny,…I thought I would post this video of another not-so-meek bunny,…who also lives in a cave (that’s for you, JC1117):

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnOdAT6H94s

            • sei says:

              I think I see Forrest Fenn on piano.

            • sei says:

              Actually Carlsburg Breweries is Danish

              • E* says:

                sei – Click on the Finnish Oy manufacturer,…in that Wikipedia link Astree provided:

                Battery is a Finnish energy drink. Its stimulating effects are based on coffee and guarana extracts, as well as taurine. The drink is yellow, sparkly and sweetish.

                Battery’s owner and manufacturer is Oy Sinebrychoff Ab, which is part of the international brewery group Carlsberg Breweries A/S.

            • Sei says:

              JC – it sure looks like him and we know he’s quoted Lewis Carroll “Down the rabbit hole”

              • anna says:

                Sei, that looks exactly like Forrest playing the piano, and accompanying one of his favorite Carroll poems. Does anyone know if Forrest plays piano?

                • Sei says:

                  Yes Anna it does, coincidentally he mentions your name and talks about “finish” in this post, hmmm how odd.

                  “But what am I gonna to do with that piano?” It was a beautiful antique Steinway baby grand with a finish that looked like five colors of black, and had crystal ball feet that were clawed. I told her I’d buy that too if she’d pay the freight to Santa Fe. She smiled, and thought a few seconds. “No, maybe I’ll give it to my church and make them come get it.”

                  We were burning sunlight and Anna kept looking at her watch. So I quickly wrote a check and headed for the back door. “Come back when you have more time and we’ll play some golf,” she said. I waved good-bye just as a Federal Aviation inspector buzzed at her gate. I think his arrival added a few revs to my propeller.

                  http://dalneitzel.com/2014/07/19/the-big-persian/

                • anna says:

                  Right Sei, and what a life f has lived!

  4. Helen says:

    Forrest’s answer is hilarious and smart, but it demonstrates why nobody, to our uncertain knowlege, has yet found his treasure, and perhaps never will.

    The answer is obtuse. Of course, it is perfectly clear that ChicagoDave’s question was related to “the rules of capitalization in the English language as currently understood by the majority of rational and intelligent human beings, and as currently agreed upon by scholars and educators of the English language”. This is so obvious that it’s OK for ChicagoDave to save us from pedantry by simplifying it. Then a quick Google search for “rules of capitalization” will show what these accepted rules are, without ChicagoDave having to bore us to tears by listing them.

    A lot of you seem to be happy with Forrest making up his own rules, because you think you know what his little secret is, and no doubt believe that you are the only one who understands his rules. Good for you, but there is absolutely no way that you can be sure. It may all be a mirage.

    I’m going to confess something. I’ve researched or been involved in around 60 treasure hunts and those that required some sort of “interpretation” were never solved, or when they were solved, the answers were atrociously bad, and luck played a major part in the solution. Kit Williams’ Masquerade solution was a thing of beauty. In the end it had a completely unambiguous answer, beginning “Catherine’s Long finger Over Shadows Earth Buried Yellow”… etc. When the words appeared, the people who solved it knew that it wasn’t just wishful thinking or interpretation, or unscrambling or anagrams, it was a definite answer.

    Obtuseness and vagueness can be fun, but they’re not good for leading someone to a treasure. And if the poem isn’t supposed to lead us to the treasure, what is it for?

    By the way, I hereby make a prediction that some of you will say “No, Forrest was not being obtuse, it was just another clue and I understand it!!!”

    • Smarty says:

      Public doesn’t have enough info to solve FF. poem. IMO the poem is too vague. Forrest should add an addendum.

      • William says:

        He did and called it TTOTC.

        • Helen says:

          Hello Will, I believe that there is a subtle difference between what Smarty suggested and your response. Smarty appears to be suggesting an after-the-fact addendum, possibly based on the level of comprehension that Forrest has seen from searchers. So, Forrest might now realise that he has made the hunt too hard or too vague, or possibly too full of meaning when he only intended it to be understood by that proverbial redneck. There’s nothing wrong with admitting so if this is the case, in fact it would show a high level of understanding and compassion.

          TTOTC appears to have been co-written, with clues added to complement the poem. Please note that I say clues here and not hints, because Forrest used the term “clues”, not “hints” in TTOTC. It’s only later that he decided to change the term to “hints”. In summary, TTOTC does not seem to be a proper addendum in the truest meaning of the word, and that is what Smarty seems to be asking for.

          • William says:

            I understand what Smarty was trying to say but I was trying to keep it simple and apply my adverse redneck style to it 🙂
            He was asking about addendum which simple means:
            ad·den·dum
            əˈdendəm/
            noun
            1.
            an item of additional material, typically omissions, added at the end of a book or other publication.
            So I really meant was that is what TTOTC was intended for. I always felt the Chase wasn’t meant for the intellect nor the simpler minds but instead IMO it’s like test to find a person that mimics Forrest, why not? You would have to be adventurous, self aware and a day dreamer sorta speak like Forrest to find the chest and imagine his poem and clues to come up with the solution.

            Maybe we get distracted with our real life environment and over analyze the simplicity of the realization of the poem and the Chase, maybe we need to find our inner child and subrogate it with our adult side 🙂

            Sorry I forgot to throw in a yee haw!

            • Helen says:

              William, I’d say that you’re exactly right about most people over-analyzing the poem. I don’t know how many times Forrest will have to point that out before people stop going off at a tangent with codes, ciphers, complex historical detail etc. If Forrest says that it can be solved by a redneck, I do believe that.

              However, I do think it’s important to distinguish between how you “translate” the poem and how you think about the treasure hunt in its whole life beyond the poem, for example to consider other things that Forrest has said. That’s where some fancy thinking and logic may come in handy.

            • lia says:

              um, is addendum addin an end?
              🙂 couldn’t resist.

        • Smarty says:

          Helen and William

          He came close with this statement but didn’t go far enough. IMO

          Some searchers overrate the complexity of the search. Knowing about head pressures, foot pounds, acre feet, bible verses, Latin, cubic inches, icons, fonts, charts, graphs, formulas, curved lines, magnetic variation, codes, depth meters, riddles, drones or ciphers, will not assist anyone to the treasure location, although those things have been offered as positive solutions. Excellent research materials are TTOTC, Google Earth, and/or a good map.f

      • Helen says:

        Hello Smarty, that wouldn’t be a bad idea. A lot of people argue that any further real clues would somehow taint the purity of the poem, and that the poem is perfect already, but we really don’t know this at all. To assume that Forrest Fenn is a treasure hunt setting genius is folly. He may be a genius in many other walks of life, but entirely useless at helping us to locate his treasure.

        I think it will be sad if Forrest dies without the world knowing how good his puzzle is, and without being able to share the post-hunt celebrations. I happen to know that there is no solution anywhere else in the world, not even in the chest. Once Forrest has gone, even if we find his treasure, we won’t necessarily know how he meant the poem to lead us there, and that will be be a minor tragedy, if such a thing can exist.

        • Smarty says:

          Helen you are right!

        • colokidd says:

          Just because no one has figured it out yet doesn’t mean it’s not perfect, it’s closer to meaning that it probably is. In ttotc, about hiding the treasure, he said “I tried to think of everything” and I believe he did.

        • Andrew Jef says:

          Helen, Forrest has said that the TC won’t be found by accident, and nobody is going to “stumble upon it” (possibly not
          his exact words). I have strong reason to believe it will be found while he is alive (in the summer of 2017, that is). But I also have strong reason to believe that although the successful solve may then be publicized, the identity of the finder will be carefully guarded. This is all my opinion only. Good luck in your search.

      • Smarty says:

        EXAMPLE: I have a spot in my mind but you don’t know what that spot is unless you are clairvoyant of course. I have to build a logical sequential path to that knowledge by constructing clues in poetry format. IMO Forrests poem does not do that. I know F has stated otherwise but even he concedes that he doesn’t know it can lead a person to the treasure.

        AKA Smarty Jones (The Horse Whisperer)

    • astree says:

      Helen,

      If the rules are not apparent, or even yet discovered, does it mean they don’t exist ? ( I think you’d agree that it doesn’t ).

      In the several years I have been following this, I have come to see Forrest as an honest person. And he says that the poem, if well-studied, will lead one directly to the chest. If you believe what Forrest says, this cancels your question about “what is the poem for”?

      ” (speaking of other puzzles) When the words appeared, the people who solved it knew that it wasn’t just wishful thinking or interpretation, or unscrambling or anagrams, it was a definite answer.”

      Again, just because you haven’t seen it yet in this case, doesn’t mean it won’t happen. If you believe Forrest. So, it involves character assessment and a degree, faith.
      .
      astree

  5. Project Why says:

    Forrest usually makes up his own rules, does he not? Which is probably not very good for those looking for this chest. Thou who wish to find it by a universal set of rules or standards will probably come up short. But wasn’t that the plan? 🙂 I mean, the book makes it sound findable and that he is offering it up to those who accept the the challenge as something attainable and it appears he MEANT for it to be found, …..but it seems now after the dust has settled, …..he doesn’t seem to really care one way or the other, maybe even more towards the other. Maybe he never wanted it found after all? Of course he not ever going to say that. Why would he? ~ A poem of complete ambiguity leading in all directions which can only be figured out by understanding ONLY exactly what he, the creator of it, actually meant, and not what anything else means per say? There’s just been so much said now, …..Lots of variables in play!! He went from place to poem. We have to go the opposite direction, from poem to place. In the end, only he knows whether the poem can actually lead someone to this place. Personally, I believe it will eventually lead someone there. It may not turn out to be as unique and elegant or perhaps even definite as some of the other stuff that’s been out there, but it will be appropriate. 🙂

    • Helen says:

      Project Why, your last word here is fascinating. What do you mean by appropriate? If you mean it’s an answer that requires imagination and interpretation (like, say those demonstrated by the Rorschach ink splat tests), then how would we ever know if that was the way that Forrest intended, once has gone?

      Honestly, if you placed the chest of gold on one table, and a scroll with Forrest’s answer on another table, and told me that I could only approach one table, I’d be wavering.

      • Project Why says:

        Helen, …..the rub is also that EVEN if he is still around when it is found, …..one may never be given the correct understanding [even then], much less if he is gone. 🙁 But if YOUR understanding gets you there, and your ok with that, then what’s wrong with well enough alone? If the first few clues will get you there and also all of the clues will get you there, then maybe it’s not as important/relevant as we have made it NEED to be?

        • Helen says:

          Project Why, such a chance find wouldn’t float my boat.

          For me, it’s not so much about the journey, it’s not so much about finding the treasure, it’s about solving and understanding the mystery. For me, discovery has to be the result of exploration, and discovery is not just about that chest, it’s about *understanding*.

          Forrest said that most of the words in the poem are useful for finding the treasure, and just solving a few words and happening across the treasure would be bad for me, if Forrest has gone or refuses to explain all. I’d like to know the truth, which, despite what Indiana Jones says, *is* important to archaeology, just like every other science.

          I suppose I may be unusual in that respect.

  6. Project Why says:

    Helen, I like the way you think. 🙂

    You pose some good questions……….

  7. Indy says:

    This is for a million dollar prize and so I expect the hints to be extremely difficult to figure out and that is fine with me. I have no perfect solution, but plenty of places to search and have some more fun as I see the Rockies.

    If the hints were easy it would have been found already and where’s the fun in that?

    • Helen says:

      Indy, I don’t think that I have made myself clear to you. Vague and obtuse are not necessarily the same as difficult. If I say that I am thinking of an object, and you have to guess it, and my clue is “it’s a thingamajig” then that is vague and difficult and you may not like that. If I say that the object is “cultured by placing father and a capital around a listening device” then it’s just difficult, but precise, and you should have more fun and reward having solved it.

      You can probably solved the latter, but certainly not the former.

  8. Muset says:

    Is there something here? Are we being told again to make our own rules for success and work within them?

    Well I’ve been trying that. So far, it requires lots of testing and tweaking..

    • Helen says:

      Muset, it simply seems to be a clever but not expensive joke by Forrest, I’m sure you got that bit.

      Would you mind explaining a little bit about what you mean by “testing and tweaking”? Testing and tweaking what? It sounds like an absolutely fascinating process,

  9. Project Why says:

    “If a person will ‘think’ they can find the chest, …..but the secret is to think.” f

    T H I N K ?? ………. SECRET……….

    Well, we’ve all done a lot that, now, …..haven’t we? 🙂

    Sooooooooo, …..What are we missing? How much more THINKING do we need to do? Thousands of people always thinking and still no chest……..

    What have ~ SOME figured out when they got the first two clues correct, …..but then ~ went right on past the rest or missed the rest, whether that be physically or on paper and then, …..perhaps never to return?

    What happened?

    THINKING……….

    Why were those that got the first two clues correct, which IMO also includes the correct starting point, …..not able to proceed any further after that or not able to get the ~ THIRD clue?

    Going back to ff’s statement above, we come to realize that reverse engineering this poem is no easy task. He went from ‘place – poem’ and now we have to go from ‘poem – place’ and try to attempt to mirror or superimpose the poem to somewhere ‘out there’ that perfectly represents it. ‘It’ also being exactly what he means and ‘Perfectly’ in the sense that it WILL lead us to the chest through following these step by step instructions. UNDERSTANDING what the poem is telling us and what he truly is saying is difficult, …..obviously. 🙂 Matching up the precise use if his words with an actual ‘place’ could take some time. Some had the beginning correct a long time ago, …..so IMO it can be accomplished, …..it is NOT impossible. For me, the key to unlocking all of it rests with the 3rd clue, because I believe ‘many’ have found the starting point………. Still thinking……….

    • The Wolf says:

      je pense, donc je suis

    • Helen says:

      Project Why, I don’t think that the problem is lack of thinking. There has been plenty of that, and some very creative thoughts and deep research by many searchers. I think the problem is vagueness. Searchers don’t even truly know what Forrest means by “clue” and “hint”, other than a vague definition that is occasionally repeated on other forums.

      Worse, searchers definitely don’t truly know what Forrest means when he says that people have “solved” the first two clues. The conventional interpretation implies that they have reached the right answer for the right reasons. If you ask me what 2+2 equals, and I say “well, I saw two swans together, and each of those looked a bit like the number 2, and they had 4 little cygnets with them, so the answer is 4” then I don’t think that you could really say that I “solved” it.

      And yet… Forrest originally said that people had solved the first two clues, but he didn’t “think that they knew it.” So is he saying that they “solved” the clues just by being at the right location? In which case, it’s a different kettle of fish, because it suggests that even these people had arrived at the starting point randomly. They hadn’t missed the third clue having been successful with the first two, *they had not been successful at all*…. just lucky, and luck will only take you so far.

      • Ed says:

        Never seen so much intelligent conversation, between Tammara and Helen you guys are knocking it out of the park. I’ve become decidedly more jaded myself.

      • astree says:

        .
        Helen said ” If you ask me what 2+2 equals, and I say “well, I saw two swans together, and each of those looked a bit like the number 2, and they had 4 little cygnets with them, so the answer is 4″ then I don’t think that you could really say that I “solved” it. ”

        Goodness, Helen, I love it!

        ( and yet, if you couldn’t conclude that two+two=four, how about two+two=foul )

        In going through some of your posts here, would it be fair to summarize that either 1) Forrest is not such a great puzzle creator, because the meaning of his hidden information is too ambiguous or 2) Forrest is an excellent puzzle creator who hid exact information in the puzzle ?

        If one were to lean toward #1, it immediately creates a psychological barrier against solving the puzzle, because why would one devote time and the full engine of mental machinery to go after a non-existent solution. However, if you believe #2 and it’s not true, you would be wasting your time. Is this the dilemma?

        “To Helen” – that’s from the dedication of “A Treasure’s Trove”, if I recall.

        astree
        l

      • astree says:

        .
        “Whose Rules”

        Sort of a fascinating and succinct summary of functioning within society.

        Rules
        Lures

        http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/be/Rulesnovel.jpg

        astree
        .

    • E* says:

      Project Why – Great post! Have you considered Rodin’s bronze,…”The Thinker”? What is he sitting on???:

      http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/56/The_Thinker%2C_Rodin.jpg/237px-The_Thinker%2C_Rodin.jpg

      • lia says:

        LOLOLO E* It’s a two part answer. get it? (I don’t mean the rock and his bum)

        • E* says:

          lia – That was funny,…and perceptive! I “think” Forrest may enjoy communicating the way you just interpreted that statue. I guess it would be three parts, though:

          In “The Thinker”,…Rodin’s statue is sitting on his:

          bum > rock > plinth

          The plinth being kinda like a engraved stone stela,…the part with the words on it. Didn’t Forrest say that he used to go to a graveyard,…where he sat on a headstone,…to think???? 🙂

  10. Mark J says:

    The first rule of poetry is that there are no rules in poetry.

    Great answer Forrest.

    • Helen says:

      Mark J, poetry is not the point here. If it’s poetry you’re looking for, Dr Wordsworth’s poetry class is right down the hall. This is about a message that leads to a treasure. If it doesn’t follow any rules at all then what’s the point?

      • Indy says:

        Helen,

        I believe Forrest is stating it’s his rules. I would agree that “no rules” would be a problem, but it’s our role to figure out his rules and apply them to the poem.

        • Helen says:

          Indy, thank you. Do you have any examples of what Forrest’s rules might look like? Or if you don’t want to put yourself in Forrest’s shoes, let’s say that I asked you to write a treasure hunt in a poem using your own rules, based on your life. What sort of rules might they be, and how would they be different from the rules that everyone else would understand?

          I’m having a hard time understanding that.

          • Indy says:

            I believe TTOTC teaches us his rules and therefore there is a methodology to solve this if we can figure out the hints.
            But I’m only guessing like everyone else.

            • Helen says:

              Interesting, Indy! Like what? In the book, I can see that Forrest copies ideas from other people, like quotations and words such as flutterby.

              Do you know of any of Forrest’s rules that weren’t copied from other people? If so, what are they? If not, how do we know that they are really the rules that he uses?

              What if I tell you that the treasure is on Bugaboo Mountain, and that my rule is that I only tell the truth 67.3567% of the time, and it just so happens that the thing about Bugaboo Mountain falls into remaining 32.6433%, how does that help you?

      • Mark J says:

        I would disagree. It is poetry. If you want a road map then try AAA.

        • Tamara says:

          Mark J. ,

          Helen is right. You have to ask, “What is the objective of the poem”? Is it to win the Pulizer Prize for literature/poetry? Is it produced for its literary merit? I don’t think you can convincingly argue that. It was produced to provide clues to pinpoint the location of a tangible treasure chest. Taken in that context, it is one of the resources provided as a “map” to the treasure.

        • Helen says:

          I’m sorry Mark, I didn’t make myself clear. I’m here to try to work with others to logically think through the clues so that somebody, anybody, finds Forrest Fenn’s treasure. My original post gave the reasons why I think it has not been solved so far, and why it may never be solved.

          I’m not so interested in the semantics of the poem and poetry, and you are perfectly entitled to your opinion on that matter, and I respect that. It doesn’t make sense to make an analogy between the sort of solution I am talking about and a road map. Road maps are logical and laid out so that the average person can interpret them as easily as possible to reach the desired end point.

          The poem *has* to be difficult, and that is a good thing. We like challenges. But as I pointed out in another post, “difficult” does not need to be vague and ethereal. It’s fine for poems and other art to be vague and ethereal, because there is not necessarily an “answer”. However, to lead me to a 10x10x5 (or 6)” chest, there’s not too much wiggle room.

  11. Tamara says:

    Helen is dead on. In an attempt to keep thinking positively, you can continue to argue that everyone is just misinterpreting, not thinking enough etc. When the reality is, that to correctly solve (prove) anything that has a complex solution (I.e. Has multiple steps in the solution). if must have a method of proving your solution at the different steps. Otherwise, as you progress through your solution, your chances of achieving a correct proof at the end, is greatly diminished. If not impossible. This poem has no way of doing that with the resources provided.

    • Helen says:

      Thank you Tamara, you put that far more eloquently than I could. I’d just tweak what you said a little to say that the poem *appears* to have no way of doing that… because I hold out a tiny glimmer of hope that there may be some inner beauty that we have just not recognized yet, and it’s not the sort of “beauty” that I’ve seen discussed elsewhere on the blogs and forums.

      Going back to my earliest point on this thread, I suppose that one of the points I was trying to make is that the poem is hard enough to solve without Forrest throwing out more vague and obtuse comments. Again, I am sure that people will come back and say “they’re not vague and obtuse, I understand them perfectly!!!”

    • Close earth says:

      Or the poem has to point you to the tool necessary to solve it.

      • Helen says:

        Close earth,good thinking, but there doesn’t seem to be any “tool” needed, that’s what Forrest has been saying to anyone prepared to listen over the past couple of years.

        I’ve just copied and pasted what Smarty reiterated a few posts up:

        “Some searchers overrate the complexity of the search. Knowing about head pressures, foot pounds, acre feet, bible verses, Latin, cubic inches, icons, fonts, charts, graphs, formulas, curved lines, magnetic variation, codes, depth meters, riddles, drones or ciphers, will not assist anyone to the treasure location, although those things have been offered as positive solutions. Excellent research materials are TTOTC, Google Earth, and/or a good map.f”

      • Andrew Jef says:

        Close earth, the tools necessary to solve the poem are listed right here. FF has told us much of this.
        1. Imagination, such as that used by a 13-year-old Forrest Fenn. Please note that in TTOTC, he said that he feels like
        he’s 13. And please note what his (approximate) age now is. It IS important in applying the needed imagination.
        2. Decent command of English (as spoken by a typical American)
        3. Google Earth
        4. A good (other) map. I found that Mapquest is sufficient.
        5. Knowledge of (customary, in English) rules of capitalization of words
        6. Persistence
        7. A few hundred honest hours of your focused time. Don’t expect to do it in a hundred hours or so.

        The above worked for me. I will move with confidence, directly to a very small “final search area” in the summer
        of 2017. I think I was banned from HoD because I apparently know too much about where the TC is, so I’m posting
        here and on chasechat instead. But I won’t overdo it.

        This is all just my opinion. Yours may differ. Good luck to all searchers, and please stay SAFE when searching!

    • astree says:

      .
      Tamara wrote:

      “to correctly solve (prove) anything that has a complex solution (I.e. Has multiple steps in the solution). if must have a method of proving your solution at the different steps. Otherwise, as you progress through your solution, your chances of achieving a correct proof at the end, is greatly diminished. If not impossible. This poem has no way of doing that with the resources provided.”

      Tamara,

      I pretty much agree (and well stated) with everything except the last line of the quote. The last line seems like somewhat a statement of frustration. But, as I have just written to Helen, the #2 point, that if the puzzle DID have a way to self-verify as you step through it, it would be more confirmation as to Forrest’s incredible smarts, as well as his meticulous work for, what, 15 years if I recall.

      astree

    • The Wolf says:

      “to correctly solve (prove) anything that has a complex solution (I.e. Has multiple steps in the solution). if must have a method of proving your solution at the different steps. Otherwise, as you progress through your solution, your chances of achieving a correct proof at the end, is greatly diminished. If not impossible. This poem has no way of doing that with the resources provided.”-Tamera

      If Fenn says all you need is the poem (google earth or a good map/flashlight/sandwich) is all you need to have the confidence to go straight to it (with a smile on your face). I tend to think that there must be ways to prove the clues are correct.

      He did say not all of the poem’s words are useful but he said it would be dangerous to discount any of them. I used to solve poem by just matching what I bleive the nine clues and ignore the other “filler” work. I changed that with my last solution. I now believe very strongly that one can prove those clues with just the poem but it is very difficult.

    • crazyfamily says:

      “This poem has no way of doing that with the resources provided.”

      Boots on the ground.

      • Tamara says:

        Boots on the ground, is not a definitive method of checking the accuracy of solutions at the various points of a complex problem. It is a necessary way of verifying, but only for the end game. Is the chest there? No? Is your solution completely wrong? Partially wrong? Did you start out wrong? Where you wrong at the turn at the last 200 feet? Do you throw out your solution completely, or do you rework your solution for your final 200 feet?

        Unless there are clues/objects/methods (i.e. some way) to confirm at what point your solution may have gone wrong, your chances of achieving a correct solution to end, are greatly diminished.

        Helen’s assertion is that if the solution is solely based on interpretations of FF’s possible meanings through his suggested resources, without the benefit of some clearly established rules, the chances of solving the location of the tc are weakened substantially. I tend to agree with Helen.

        It doesn’t mean it can never be solved, just that the difficulty increases exponentially the more vague the principle resources available.

        • astree says:

          .
          “Helen’s assertion is that if the solution is solely based on interpretations of FF’s possible meanings through his suggested resources,”

          Extremely critical point, if it were possible to be sending up flares here, they would fill the post.

          “without the benefit of some clearly established rules”

          ???
          .

        • crazyfamily says:

          Forrest has dared us to find the TC and his special place. He said it would be difficult but not impossible. Those are the rules. I think the placement of the blaze in the middle of the poem is confirmation of the preceding clues. The TC is not at the blaze, IMO. I could guess the distance to the chest. : )

          • Tamara says:

            IMO, those aren’t the rules (if any exist). So how do we find out whose idea of “the rules” are correct? Yours, or someone else’s idea (interpretation) of what FFs rules may be? The concept of “rules” is that they are available as clearly as can be, to all participants. They may need to be further clarified by the owners/administrators, but they are available for all to review and follow.

            If they are not, then they are again, just an “interpretation” of what each game participant perceives they MAY be.

            • crazyfamily says:

              I’d say rules are for games. Forrest said he wasn’t playing any games when he wrote the poem. This is about his life. When asked about searchers getting arrested he said this:

              But can you at least assure people they won’t get arrested? Or that they won’t get sued and lose the money? “I’m not assuring people of anything,” Fenn admitted. “I went out there and hide a treasure chest, and they can go get it. That’s it.”

              • Tamara says:

                We are not searching for FFs life, we are searching for a tangible treasure chest. With a poem, some books written by FF that according to him, contain hints and/or clues that if interpreted correctly, will solve the puzzle of where the tc is hidden.

                Hints/Clues/Puzzle and Reward, the Thrill of the Chase, the thrill of the game. It is a GAME.

                And no one, from what I’ve read has been able to refute Helen’s original remarks. She has certainly had much more experience with her 60 treasure hunts than most of us and her argument that treasure hunts that have no established rules, but are subject to being solved by interpretation, are less likely to be sucessfully solved.

                So far, her argument has the benefit of logic on its side that I haven’t seen countered.

                • crazyfamily says:

                  Is that it? I think Forrest said he’d be happy if it wasn’t found for a thousand years. I believe him, but it won’t stop me from trying. If you’re not trying to convince searchers to quit, what’s your point? That it might never be found? Brilliant.

                • Project Why says:

                  “being solved by interpretation”

                  Probably the only way I would have ever had a chance anyway with all you intellectuals. 🙂

              • tamara says:

                In any case, we are engaged in the proverbial apples and oranges debate. Some are taking the position that FF needs to be defended, whatever position he’s taken on anything chase related. It’s his Chase, after all. No one is denying.

                But I believe they’re misreading Helen’s position. She’s not attacking FF for his approach to his own game. She’s (IMO) merely stating her observation, given her exprience that this Chase may be one of the ones that MAY never be solved based on the premise that it is an interpretive rather than objective.

                • Tamara says:

                  My point, Crazy, is don’t take Helen’s opinions personally. Forrest is a big boy now, he doesn’t need to be defended to the death on his every position. There is room for alternative opinions ( like Helen’s). And positive debate. In fact, I would say that honest and open debate in this GAME is long overdue and can only help. Provided everyone keeps an open mind and their critical thinking skills intact.

                  Helen may be wrong, or she may be right. Time will bear out the truth. But her bringing the matter up, was a testament to her courage and logical thinking.

                • crazyfamily says:

                  Great, you guys have fun debating why no one can find it, and I’ll go back to actually searching for it. Are you and mdavis related?

                • tamara says:

                  Like I said Crazy, keep your critical thinking skills intact, don’t make it PERSONAL. You may actually have a chance. Good luck.

  12. Project Why says:

    Helen, like I said before, you pose some good questions and a spot on reality check. …..I’m just looking for a glimmer of hope. If not, then what’s the point, right? Why would anyone want to waste my time? I can go do all these things anytime I want to. I don’t need a chest to do it. I’ve tried everything I can think of and have searched times too numerous to even want to mention anymore and I’ll admit I’m kinda stuck between a rock and chest. 🙂

    He really had no way to test any of this out to determine just how difficult it could be before he hid it. For all we know and all he knows, it very well could be impossible. Just looking at it, it does seem easy enough to superimpose this poem to a precise spot on a map. But it’s not. The vagueness and ambiguities overwelm. But it could be made easier through his participation and maybe it has been? Who knows? I mean, no one will definitely know for sure until it is found or unless he confirms it. And his participation is also a two edged sword. It can lead to making it more difficult with too much noise to filter through as we have now. I just wish when he answered something, he made it a little more definitive rather than the vagueness of it meaning so many things. Either he doesn’t really want it found or he knows something we don’t. And we ARE missing it somehow………??

    But he’s right though. Without figuring out the first clue and where to start, …..we have no chance at all. But also as we have come to understand, that may not even be enough. He got what he wanted though, …..frustration and sweat. 🙂 Oh well, I have still enjoyed it and I’m glad to have met him. I’ve learned things I would not have if it hadn’t been out in front of me. We will just have to wait and see and maybe one day the story will tell itself.

    • Helen says:

      Project Why, thank you. I’d like to think that I’m one of the most positive people you could ever meet, and believe me, I’d like to see that glimmer of hope.

      You’ve given me a great example there, he did indeed imply that if we don’t know WWWH we are wasting our time, and yet…

      He has likened finding WWWH to baking a cake – we need all the ingredients to make it right. This suggests that you can’t truly solve WWWH without understanding some of the rest of the clues, and yet…. people have managed to “solve” it (the first two clues) without doing so?

      My brain boggles to work out how this makes any sense.

      I think it’s absolutely WONDERFUL that Forrest has encouraged people to spend time in the Rocky Mountains, I have spent around four weeks searching on four separate occasions.

      However, I’d guess that the majority of searchers’ time is spent hunched over the glow of a computer screen. If getting into the country is what you want, there are far cheaper and environmentally friendly ways to do it locally. You’ll spend less time on the computer, more time smelling the sunshine, and contributing more to your local area. Even if you live in a city, there’s lots to discover. You’ll spend more time with your family, they won’t worry about you while you’re away or fret about how you are spending the housekeeping. If Forrest has inspired you, let that be his legacy. Where was I?

      Ah… we’re here to solve Forrest Fenn’s treasure hunt, aren’t we? So getting back to my original point…

      For now, we may be stranded on that desert island, with a torn and faded treasure map. It may make sense to sit back under that palm tree, relax, and sip on a coconut, admiring the sights and sounds of nature around you. And yet, keep a weather eye on the horizon for a fresh wind…

      • JCM says:

        Helen – Thanks for the refreshing discussions you have engendered here, they have been few and far between for a while now.

        It is this concept of making a cake that caused me to rethink everything, go through all my research and writings, and reformat and rethink all of it the last few months. I look at it this way; all the correct ingredients are needed in order to find the chest. f, I believe, has laid them out: the poem, TTOTC, a word that is key, Google Earth/good map; he has even added sprinkles and said that TFTW has hints that will also help a person, and it is not just the unintentional clue. From his statements, there are hints in the TFTW stories just like TTOTC. Then there are all of his other statements, writings, posts, comments, etc.; I focus on the ones where he specifically is talking about the clues or anything related to people finding the treasure chest. The troublesome part is that there is no measurements for these ingredients, so we are left to experiment and figure it out.

        Before f commented about “a word that is key,” I discovered what I will also call my word that is key. It has given a perspective to the poem that helps eliminate some of its vagueness, made the first clue unmistakably clear (and confirmed the hints for the first clue I had found in TTOTC before discovering this word) and made the other clues in the poem understandable, at least once I am able to pin them down in the poem. I say understandable, because it is only enough to point me in the right direction and provide understanding of what to look for with the other clues and have confidence in their solutions as I figure them out. My word that is key does not spell everything out, allowing one to just go take a walk and pick up the chest. It is like f said, the clues are difficult to figure out and will require a lot of thinking, analysis, planning, and imagination, amongst other things; even with all the ingredients, the cake still takes time to bake.

        I have been to my search area a number of times, I go, test out ideas and thoughts, take pictures, and try to take it all in, then I go back home, think about all of it some more, study the pictures and the maps, and look at the geography of the area. Slowly it is making sense (probably because I am slow), and I keep asking myself each time I get one step further, what took me so long to see that? If this is the right spot, I can understand how “certainly more than several” got the first clue correct, why only several got the second clue, and why people have walked past the chest and the other seven clues without noticing them. The clues ARE difficult to figure out. Just figuring out which words are the clues in the poem is tough, and I think this is why f has said no one has provided a correct solution past the second clue (I would still like to know how it was that a man was closest when some women have been close too, yet only two clues have been supposedly solved with a number of searchers having been within 200-500 feet — I suspect that the man got at least one of the later clues correct, or maybe thought that something in the poem was the third clue but isn’t a clue according to f).

        I know I am just as likely to be wrong as everyone else is, and has been. I have enough confidence from what I have discovered to keep that hope glimmering, but I will not be convinced I am right until I am staring at the chest.

        Congratulations to those who made it through this book I just wrote!!!

  13. JC1117 says:

    What? Answering a question with another question? Who DOES that? And Why? Does anybody know?

  14. Lou Lee says:

    I get that….I do……Rules? who needs them.!….Love you Forrest.

    Lou Lee, Chased by Bears in Jellystone Park and lived to tell..

  15. Helen says:

    Lou Lee, in that case I really hope that I never hear these words:

    “Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for flying Contretemps Airways, this is your captain Lou Lee, Chased by Bears etc etc speaking…” 😉

  16. Project Why says:

    Helen,

    “He has likened finding WWWH to baking a cake – we need all the ingredients to make it right. This suggests that you can’t truly solve WWWH without understanding some of the rest of the clues, and yet…. people have managed to “solve” it (the first two clues) without doing so?”
    ————————

    I doubt they had any confidence in their solves or even knew they were correct. They guessed. And guessed correctly. They got lucky!! 🙂

    But yeah, I do see your point though. I don’t know anyone who bakes a cake all at once without first going step-by-step through the ingredients/the process. These are instructions are they not? First, gotta find the right store where all the ingredients actually exist, then bring them all home and put it together. In this case, staring at home and then transferred/mirrored in the field. And I think that is in some manner what he meant ~ using the whole poem to confirm everything else ~ step by step. ^

  17. astree says:

    .
    Whose Rules,
    Chica goD ave

    bon, Forrest

    :L)

    • E* says:

      Astree – Good one! Are you perchance referring to the OTHER contest entry fashioned by JC1117’s wife,…the beautiful angel??? 🙂

  18. Buddy Allen says:

    It should be clear by now that many of ff’s comments are intended to muddy the warm waters.

    Helen your logic is like a soft spring breeze. You remind me of my dear grandmother, who was a writer, and also named Helen.

    Ole man Fenn hasn’t given us much to go on, I’m sure by design. If he felt like it he’d probably go fishin, instead he just enjoys playing with us from the lazyboy. The child I try to show the poem to is an 8 year old from Texas in 1938. Getting into the current ff’s head is helpful but probably also harder.

    • Andrew Jef says:

      Buddy, you’re almost on to an important method for a successful solve, in my opinion. But 1938 is about two
      years too early for it to work. Please think about this, with an eye on “American culture/history”. I don’t want
      to give away too much info right now, as I want to be the finder of the TC . . . but don’t mind providing you a small
      nudge in the right direction. Good luck. This is all just my opinion. Yours may differ.

  19. milanfenner says:

    I believe his use of the word “Capitalization” is very clever.

    Alternate definitions of the word Capitalization are: “the act of gaining an advantage from some opportunity” and “convert financial assets to capital.”

    Is it possible that he’s telling a searcher “go get it, what are you waiting for?” Has anyone given him a fresh solve recently?

  20. Project Why says:

    Yeah, he’s probably just having some fun with us and also living through our own adventures. 🙂 Heck why not!! He paid for it. Life’s not always fair. Probably never meant for it to be found. 🙁 Probably will be found in some road construction while they’re building some highway along some river somewhere a hundred to two hundred years from now. 🙂 I’m sure he thinks he’s doing us all a favor regardless. And for most he probably is……….

    A poem/treasure hunt of INTERPRETATION?? …..Sure why not. I mean, when he was asked if he would ever know if it were found, he said, paraphrasing — maybe, maybe not, but that most likely the person who finds it would be the TYPE of person who ALSO couldn’t keep it quiet, so he would probably know. No set rules here. He hid it — we try to find it. That’s it.

  21. 23kachinas says:

    Earth Day or EARTH DAY (depends on the type face – just ask Eric Sloane)

  22. crazyfamily says:

    The only game being run here was by Helen and Tamara. Crowd Sourcing. Good one ladies, I didn’t notice until I went back and read the thread all the way through.

    • Tamara says:

      There was no game being run by anyone Crazy. “Crowdsourcing” or otherwise. You engaged in what was a classic debate and in that forum, invariably the most logical argument is the one that prevails. Yours was not the most logical. But good luck to you in the search. As I seem to have to repeat to you; don’t make it PERSONAL.

    • Ed says:

      Helen and Tammara that was some brilliant critical thinking instead of endless brown nosing which leads a man or woman no where. What we need on all the blogs is constructive critical thinkers rather than mushy endless dripping SAP.

      • colokidd says:

        I thought it was just a discussion about sour grapes.

      • E* says:

        Ed – I agree! Although,…”dripping SAP” can be useful,…to make pine pitch,…which might be used to create quite a good water resistant seal,…to protect the Hidey Spot of the Bronze Chest.

        And I like that the fine point you made,…was made by a fine searcher,…whose first name initial is an E. 🙂

  23. astree says:

    .
    Tangentially related:

    (quote)The parentheses are all Fenn, as are the ALL CAPS, when he writes that these spots were “TOP SECRET,” especially Nine Mile Hole, because it could hold only one fisherman. (end quote)

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/03/03/clues-for-finding-forrest-fenn-s-buried-treasure-part-2.html

    • E* says:

      Astree – You are BRILLIANT! And I am not just “nosing” your “home of Brown”. A very large Nine Pound Brown was caught thereabouts, btw. 🙂

      • E* says:

        Astree – Speaking of “IT”,…where that Nine Pound Brown was caught,…in that hole,…this a great FREE reference to guide searchers down (or is it up?) the Madison River:

        http://www.yellowstoneflyfishing.com/madison.htm

        “There is a deep spring hole across the river where it rejoins the road and a nine-pound brown was taken here once upon a time, and there is still a lunker or two in this spot.

        Beyond the riffle is a short bench meadow section where the river divides around islands. Weeds, deep undercut banks and potholes in the bottom provide excellent holding for large trout.

        A short, deep run is followed by another small meadow stretch, then a half-mile-long riffle, mostly unfishworthy, leads into a curving run that ends at upper Nine Mile Hole.”

        IMO,…”IT”s all about the Fly Fishing. 🙂

    • astree says:

      .
      That’s got be ginormous.

      To address a previous point of yours:

      ““The poem Behold, O God!, by William Browne,[14] can be considered a complex kind of acrostic. In the manuscript, some letters are capitalized and written extra-large, non-italic, and in red, and the lines are shifted left or right and internally spaced out as necessary to position the red letters within three crosses that extend through all the lines of the poem.”

      I am partial to the one by E.A. Poe in that link above. And I like that William Browne spelled HIS name with an “e” on the end,…just like Eric Sloane did. :-)” (wrote E*)

      You bring up some great references, E*. ( I was going through part of “O,Captain O, Captain” this morning, by Whitman ). The problem I would have, however, with applying any of it to the puzzle, is that it is information wayyyyyy outside the context of the puzzle.

      There is more, though, that applies to the essence of this reply from Forrest, and that is that he HAS given an indication of some of his capitalization rules, and these ARE hints that are helpful.

      In addition, like ee cummings, you can infer from his response to the question here, that he does NOT follow the standard rules, as he uses caps 4 times, but not for his own initial.
      .
      Be Well,
      astree

      • E* says:

        astree – I loved “Dead Poets Society”,…and that poem,…written by that poet with W.W. initials,…but how abbout the relevance of THIS poem,…written by another W.W. poet,…and featured in “A River Runs Through IT”:

        http://www.moviequotedb.com/movies/a-river-runs-through-it/quote_19964.html

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdFVE4gWXN0
        (@8:30)

        Any excuse to post a video clip of Brad. 🙂

      • E* says:

        astree – I was not familiar with E.E. Cummings,…or this nice poem (sans capitalization),…which also mentions the heart:

        http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poetrymagazine/poem/179622

        Thank you. 🙂

        • astree says:

          🙂

          ” and this is the wonder that’s keeping the stars apart ”

          you think Angelina would put Brad up as a prize for a footrace ?
          ,

          • E* says:

            Astree – A footrace with Brad against whom? Tank the Bear? Or maybe a rematch against Little Bart (aka Bart the Bear II)?:

            http://us.hellomagazine.com/film/2001/08/22/bradpitt/

            Doesn’t matter, I guess,…as long as E* gets the prize. And Brad agrees to star in the Academy Award-winning movie we will all make later. 🙂

            • astree says:

              .
              I was thinking maybe AJ would race YOU, with Brad as the prize (you’re a runner, right?)

              oso cafe’

              • E* says:

                Astree – Now why would I ever compete with the woman who is going to help direct,…and also produce,…my Academy Award-winning movie????

                Since Brad will be playing Forrest,…HE will have one of those menacing Brown Bears,…hot on his heels,…and I will be way ahead of the pack (because I am hiking,…aggressively and frequently,…at the very altitude,…or higher,…where I believe the Bronze Chest to be). In my movie,…Forrest has decided to escort me,…a fine lady,..”in the wood”,…because of my SEVERE case of Agrizoophobia,…and his desire to be Knighted. Because he believes in Chivalry (although, I don’t think he ever actually had a White Horse).

                But I like the way you think. 😉

                • E* says:

                  Astree – I was very encouraged by this quote by Doug Seuss,…trainer and friend to ALL of those Brown Bears:

                  “Brad is a man of his word,” says the bear trainer. “He called one day and asked, ‘What’re we going to do and when?’ He is a man of integrity who believes in the environment.” The $20 million-per-picture hunk worked on the documentary free of charge.

                  But I think that was back in 2001. It would be a much bigger decision for Brad to forsake all that money now. But I am sure all his kids,…and Angelina,…would be impressed if he did. All the profits from the movie could go toward the Vital Ground effort. And the Grizzes,…everywhere,…would be forever thankful. And our beloved Bart the Bear would smile down on Brad from Heaven. What could be nicer??? 🙂

                • anna says:

                  E* Non-tangentinly related..All parens are my own. numbers are approximated. (legalspeakdisclaimersatbottomin5pttext)

                  If you get through to Forrest, Please kindly inform him that I have a severe case of rattlesnakeaphobia, and would love him to escort my partner and me through Wyoming in June. (Tell him we’re cute and funny to sweeten the deal). We’ll provide Red Ryders, swiss army knives to cut the pimento sandwiches, but expect him to stomp on the snakes or charm them – his choice. (85% of that is true).
                  LS:Don’tdressupmydiagnosiswithcorrectterms.Imakeupwordsand
                  rambleadnauseum

                • E* says:

                  anna – I have never met Forrest in person,…but I hear he is very charming,…and that he owns a really nice rug (I think it’s in his Den,…readily accessible,…and that’s the room up the stairs,…with the Moses statue standing on them):

                  http://fineartamerica.com/images-simple-print/images-medium/snake-charmer-eric-wieringa.jpg

  24. Jdiggins says:

    and, which capitalization? There are plenty who are going by the rules of capitalization. Learning from forrest and Elmyr De Hory! 🙂

  25. The Wolf says:

    Very good discussion on why the home of Brown is capitalized. I said at hoD that I have moved from the traditional means of looking at this (Brown Trout, bat,bear,etc) and I am still open to formal last name “Brown” but one thing to consider is maybe it is capitalized because there are two different meanings to brown and the one we should use is the capitalized version.

    Mr Fenn has made about 7 references to brown in TTOTC. One that stuck out in my mind – “…beautiful old iron, slide-down for escape was just outside that window.” and “that rusty old iron thing marked the tail of my britches pretty good with a heavy brown color.” I believe Mr. Fenn used “marked the tail of my britches” in stead of the natural words “stain”. Why is this important? Because it sounds like “stane”; for those that understand FF’s hints to “listen” good, this logic has some merit, especially when one considers his many references to time or Time Magazine. When Forrest said on Jenny’s Q&A “There isn’t a human trail in very close proximaty to where I hid the treasure.f” Some have noted “proximaty” is spelled wrong. Of course that is an aberration and the part that was change to a misspelling is “mity” which had me wondering what does either “maty” or “mity” have to do with a hint? I did some research on the Secret Life of Walter Mitty and besides the use of “secret” there are a couple of interesting facts. There are some suspicious quotes like “It’s not what they say on the blogs that may be significant, it’s what they whisper.” which is another aberration derived from Errol Flynn’s quote, “It isn’t what they say about you, it’s what they whisper.” That Errol Flynn seems to be linked back the Walter Mitty again. [BTW google Errol Flynn images ;-)]

    So where and I going with all this? Life magazine is very similar to Time Maganzine but it has a logo of the Brownie. The Brownie’s habitat is the home. A Brownie is a mythical creature best described by John Brandt in his description of Shetland:

    “Not above forty or fifty years ago, every family had a brownie, or evil spirit, so called, which served them, to which they gave a sacrifice for his service; as when they churned their milk, they took a part thereof, and sprinkled every corner of the house with it, for Brownie’s use; likewise, when they brewed, they had a stone which they called ‘Brownie’s stane’, wherein there was a little hole into which they poured some wort for a sacrifice to Brownie…”

    The Fenn reference to wort and Brownie’s stane brings life to the clue “home of Brown”. One has to keep in mind the poem will be solved with imagination and third order hinting. Subtle hinting requires disguise and linking many subtles together: the first vague hint in the description of Brownie is the word “sprinkled” which is used by Fenn to describe his clues “are sprinkled within the stories.” That is actually a big hint since I do not know of any macho Fight jocks that intentionally use the word “sprinkle.” The wort sounds like wart (“hear me now and listen”) which may be hinted by all his frog references and pictures in his book and scrapbook. His most notable “I will give you a hint the treasure is not in the frog jar.” Warts are synonymously related to the myth that frogs give you warts. Anyone of these hints in isolation is subtly insignificant but in combination these aberrations form a powerful suggestion that Brownie is the home of Brown. The capitalization of the poem’s “Brown” is simply explained by the fact that there is a cookie/cake called a brownie and it is not capitalized. The Brownie is also a category of Girl Scouts in grades two to three (ages 7-8). Suspiciously around the same “time” Mr. Fenn did his best “thinking” – “I would wake 0700 every morning and do nothing but think in bed until 0800.”f). Now that makes a lot of sense as to why he said “All you have to do is think about the nine clues and follow them in order” Forrest has two daughters so Girl Scouts would be closer to Fenn’s heart than boy Scouts of which many a searcher have focused on. Maybe that is why “she” will be happy when she sees the treasure.

    This line of thinking of home of Brownie was used in my Finding Fenn story/solution to back my hoB.

    • The Wolf says:

      I tried to post this on hoD but it appears Goofy is keeping all my good posts to himself and deleting them. Someone might want to pass on to those over there since I started to talk about this over there.

    • the Wolf says:

      I forgot to include the other Errol flynn quote, “Any man who dies with more than $10000 to his name is a failure”, which is where Mr. Fenn coined his phrase, “for he who dies with over fifty dollars is a failure.”

    • anna says:

      Wolf, thanks for adding your intelligent, researched discussion about brown, and for the introduction of new ideas. I appreciate you sharing with everyone. “Stane” definitions listed below align with “scant” being a worked stone. Worth paying attention in my opinion.

      STANE http://www.thefreedictionary.com/stane

  26. astree says:

    There are 10,11 letters in Forrest’s response

    This is the timemark, where the discussion of his treasure begins

    https://youtu.be/DFry3Vbt_IE?t=10m11s

    “We left gold country behind, for another part of the desert SouthWest… New Mexico”

  27. Halogetter says:

    I’m not posting on the blogs any more, but I found this particular thread to be worth participating in. I respectfully begin with with a clip from Helen, who provided much of the spark here:

    Helen: “A lot of you seem to be happy with Forrest making up his own rules, because you think you know what his little secret is, and no doubt believe that you are the only one who understands his rules. Good for you, but there is absolutely no way that you can be sure. It may all be a mirage. I’m going to confess something. I’ve researched or been involved in around 60 treasure hunts and those that required some sort of “interpretation” were never solved, or when they were solved, the answers were atrociously bad, and luck played a major part in the solution. Kit Williams’ Masquerade solution was a thing of beauty. In the end it had a completely unambiguous answer, beginning “Catherine’s Long finger Over Shadows Earth Buried Yellow”… etc. When the words appeared, the people who solved it knew that it wasn’t just wishful thinking or interpretation, or unscrambling or anagrams, it was a definite answer.
    Obtuseness and vagueness can be fun, but they’re not good for leading someone to a treasure. And if the poem isn’t supposed to lead us to the treasure, what is it for?”

    This point gets at the notion of both the difficulty level of solving the poem and the general nature of the kinds of “clues” that Forrest has intended to be “solved”. I’ve spoken about this idea a number of times before, including the fact that Forrest cannot know in advance how challenging his poem really is, and also the Goldilocks Problem, and the same thoughts along these lines as provided by the intelligent Shaun Whitehead. Some of the responses on this thread provide additional perspective on this idea, and some worthwhile tangents as well, and I will get to those.

    Helen “confesses” something as an experienced treasure hunter, and I understand exactly what she’s talking about. Forrest Fenn is not an experienced huntsetter, and I don’t know if he has studied any other hunts. I don’t believe that he did, at least not extensively. Despite the fact that he may have spent 15 years on his poem, he is a novice at setting a chase. It is logically almost impossible for Forrest to know just how difficult his poem is to solve. The only way to determine it is by unleashing the poem on the world and seeing what happens, which he has done, and all of the poem-solvers and searchers are testing out his theory.

    We do in fact know that the poem is not real easy to solve, as it has not been done yet. It is at least difficult enough to go 5 years without being solved. But there is the potential for the poem to be close to impossible to solve. That’s an unknown. Helen touches on this with respect to the “interpretation” issue, and whether the poem requires a very specific interpretation as opposed to having definitive and singular solutions to actual clues. And being an experienced treasure hunter, as is Shaun Whitehead, Helen reveals a frustration with a novice huntsetter.

    Helen’s and Shaun’s comments remind me of the views expressed by some top professional poker players, which is counter-intuitive when you first hear it, but logical after consideration. Many really good poker players just hate to sit at a table with non-professional newbies. They have come to know what to expect from other professional players, but when you throw a novice in the mix, they don’t know how to deal with them. The novice is a loose cannon, doesn’t know the odds, has little experience and judgement with what to do as the game unfolds and cards are turned, how the odds evolve, and reading the other players and tells. The novice is more random, unpredictable, going on emotion, whim, and mood, whatever. So the top poker player is really thrown for a loop by the novice. This, in a sense, is what Helen and Shaun are touching upon, and which I have posted about in the past. Forrest has no record as a huntsetter. In addition, he has expressed that he is “ambivalent” about the treasure being found (which I don’t believe), as opposed to the typical huntsetter who really wants to see the fruits of their effort, to watch it solved in a reasonable amount of time and not die with the mystery.

    William: “So (what) I really meant was that is what TTOTC was intended for. I always felt the Chase wasn’t meant for the intellect nor the simpler minds but instead IMO it’s like test to find a person that mimics Forrest, why not? You would have to be adventurous, self aware and a day dreamer sorta speak like Forrest to find the chest and imagine his poem and clues to come up with the solution.”

    This is a reasonable idea. However, if one were to become like Forrest, and put herself in his shoes and his mind, just what kind of mind would that take? An intellect, or a simpler mind, the joyous outlook of a child, the straightforward thinking of a “redneck” (which I would not want to categorize either, there being the full spectrum of idiot to genius level rednecks)? Some might say that getting to know Forrest too well may be a hindrance, a distraction, as many claim TToTC, tftw, and all of the scrapbooks to be. Would it be better to just find it in the road, pick it up and begin? That’s for each searcher to determine. Can you really become the Forrest?

    Helen: “Hello Smarty, that wouldn’t be a bad idea. A lot of people argue that any further real clues would somehow taint the purity of the poem, and that the poem is perfect already, but we really don’t know this at all. To assume that Forrest Fenn is a treasure hunt setting genius is folly. He may be a genius in many other walks of life, but entirely useless at helping us to locate his treasure. I think it will be sad if Forrest dies without the world knowing how good his puzzle is, and without being able to share the post-hunt celebrations. I happen to know that there is no solution anywhere else in the world, not even in the chest. Once Forrest has gone, even if we find his treasure, we won’t necessarily know how he meant the poem to lead us there, and that will be be a minor tragedy, if such a thing can exist.”

    This is sensitive thinking again, and echoes what William said. “To assume that Forrest Fenn is a treasure hunt setting genius is folly.” I’m a fan of Forrest and I highly respect him, and have enjoyed some correspondence with him. I believe that he’s a good person without ill wishes for anyone, he’s intelligent and capable. I could go on. However, as Helen, Shaun and others have noted, it’s not appropriate to refer to him as a genius because of the impression that his poem is incredibly challenging or appears to be an intricate, multi-layered, perfect work of genius or magic. We don’t yet have confirmation of the solution, which Helen said that she wants so badly that she might trade the chest for it. So we can’t publicly confirm precisely how devious and clever the poem is. And just how would you go about determining a particular huntsetter to be a ‘genius’? It’s just hyperbole. Deal with the poem on your own terms, and the solution may become known. I do believe that the poem IS designed (like an architectural plan) to lead one straight to the treasure.

    However, I do feel that when the chest is retrieved that I feel confident that most of Forrest’s secrets regarding the poem and the chest will become evident. For many reasons, I do not believe that the chest will be found yet the mystery of the poem will still remain unknown. Once Forrest is gone, that’s an entirely new phase of the game with many additional problems and concerns. Someone may find the chest and stay quiet, and searchers will never be completely free of doubt as to whether the chest is still really out there. With Forrest gone (I do hope he’s got a few more decades), I would expect the ranks of searchers to diminish for this reason. That is unless Forrest has truly “thought of everything”, and has plans in place for another person to mind the store, to keep an eye on the chase and provide at least minimal feedback to the public as to the existence of the treasure or not. Perhaps he’s hatched a plan for it to be passed down as long as it takes, with each vested person vowing to pass it on to another before they die, like the sequence of priests and their world-saving key and secret in The Fifth Element.

    Project Why: “A poem of complete ambiguity leading in all directions which can only be figured out by understanding ONLY exactly what he, the creator of it, actually meant, and not what anything else means per say? There’s just been so much said now, …..Lots of variables in play!! He went from place to poem. We have to go the opposite direction, from poem to place. In the end, only he knows whether the poem can actually lead someone to this place. Personally, I believe it will eventually lead someone there. It may not turn out to be as unique and elegant or perhaps even definite as some of the other stuff that’s been out there, but it will be appropriate. :-)”

    PW has offered pretty straightforward words of wisdom right there. If your brain is quite tangled in knots, read the above. I like the use of the word “appropriate”. This echoes what Forrest said about the poem “doing its job”, right? Grandiose harp music may not sound, angels may not fly from your arse, and the heavens of thought and imagination may not open up when the solution is known, but at least you should be able to say “Oh man, that’s it! Well I’ll be darned…” There’s a song called “An Adequate Girl”; “I want an adequate girl, she can’t be terrible and bad, she’s not magnificent or sublime, she falls apart and starts to whine, but she’s as able as I, and that’s all right.”

    There’s at least one adequate or appropriate poem, with or without bells and whistles, “perfect” or not, deluxe or standard model, that you can use to find a treasure, if you’re willing to stick with it.

    Helen expressed confusion about Forrest’s comments about people figuring out the first two clues but not knowing it, etc. I can think of no topic that has consumed more blog threads, hand-wringing posts, concern and worry other than these comments about the distance of searchers, the 500 feet, the 200 feet, and on and on. I would not expect Forrest to be able to, or to be obliged to, state these things perfectly, without ambiguity, and they really don’t matter. How will this speculation, especially if it is not fully sorted out, really help you solve the poem? To me it’s just so much mental baggage…

    Helen: “Mark J, poetry is not the point here. If it’s poetry you’re looking for, Dr Wordsworth’s poetry class is right down the hall. This is about a message that leads to a treasure. If it doesn’t follow any rules at all then what’s the point?”

    Right on, BUT, I think it’s a circular argument to question there being or needing to be any rules in this game. The rules or tactics of other huntsetters need not apply here. The poem itself will answer the question of what its parameters are. I think the word “rules” has no place here, and I don’t think Forrest owes anyone any, outside of the poem. The rule is “So I wrote a poem”. And Helen and others have already sufficiently analyzed Forrest’s “Whose Rules?” response above. The poem may or may not have rules, but it certainly has its own Way.

    Tamara: “Helen is dead on. In an attempt to keep thinking positively, you can continue to argue that everyone is just misinterpreting, not thinking enough etc. When the reality is, that to correctly solve (prove) anything that has a complex solution (i.e. has multiple steps in the solution) you must have a method of proving your solution at the different steps. Otherwise, as you progress through your solution, your chances of achieving a correct proof at the end, is greatly diminished. If not impossible. This poem has no way of doing that with the resources provided.”

    Thanks for some good input in this thread, Tamara. I disagree that this poem has “no way of doing that with the resources provided”. Again, while we can never know with certainty just how difficult this poem is to solve (and neither can Forrest) until it’s solved, I believe Forrest has provided the tools, both with the poem and with specific comments outside of the poem. It’s extraordinarily helpful to know about the clues that “they’re contiguous”, and they must be followed in order, and that you must start at the beginning, and that you need to know where warm waters halt, to keep it simple, and countless other sobering statements provided by Forrest.

    Based upon those comments alone, what does that tell you about the “word that is key” statement? Do you think that a word that is key will help you in the middle of the poem? If you are searching for something in a house, is it helpful to have the key to the second floor safe when you don’t yet have the key to the house? If you don’t begin with the correct solution, you are headed in some random, fractal pattern, a succession of errors.

    Tamara: “And no one, from what I’ve read has been able to refute Helen’s original remarks. She has certainly had much more experience with her 60 treasure hunts than most of us and her argument that treasure hunts that have no established rules, but are subject to being solved by interpretation, are less likely to be successfully solved. So far, her argument has the benefit of logic on its side that I haven’t seen countered.”

    Discussion is a better term than refutation. I think that it is logical to presume that a treasure hunt based upon interpretation, with all things being equal, may be less likely to be successfully solved. Many treasure hunts do end in disappointment or even anger for the searchers, and people are left scratching their heads and wondering “How could it be like that?”, that the clues were poorly constructed, or that they wasted their time. But again, this is speculation that cannot be affirmed or denied without the solution. It simply is tough noogies to speculate about what kind of poem it is, what type of clues are employed, are they interpretive or dead-on specific about particular, self-referential solutions, etc. You will only answer those questions, and determine how good of a huntsetter Forrest is, or even know how you really feel about how complex or simple this hunt is, or how you feel about its ending, by finding the precision of the poem. “It’s there in the poem for all to see.”

    Project Why: “He really had no way to test any of this out to determine just how difficult it could be before he hid it. For all we know and all he knows, it very well could be impossible. Just looking at it, it does seem easy enough to superimpose this poem to a precise spot on a map. But it’s not. The vagueness and ambiguities overwhelm. But it could be made easier through his participation and maybe it has been?”

    PW, you are correct that Forrest cannot know in advance how difficult the poem is, and the answer lies in the test that is unfolding as we speak. Just realize how easy it would be to make an impossible poem- a moron could do it! It would be extremely simple to make an easy poem, and time shows us that Forrest’s poem is not easy, so we can eliminate that option. But it would be child’s play to make a poem that is impossible to solve.

    So somehow Forrest needed (I would hope) to hit the middle ground. But where exactly is his middle ground? That’s what I mean when I talk about the Goldilocks Problem. How could Forrest create a poem that was just right; not too hot and not too cold? And if he is supposedly ambivalent about people solving it, his “just right” may be vastly different than a typical huntsetter, who wants the poem to be solved in a reasonable period of time. So what was Forrest thinking when he finalized the poem, and asked himself “Hmmm, I wonder how long it will take for someone to get this”, especially considering that he said “Show it to your kids. They’ll get it.” (Which, by the way, begs the question as to by “it” did he mean get the poem, or get “it”, as in the “it” in the poem, but I digress…) And he has mentioned both next week and a thousand years.

    PW also raises the issue of whether Forrest’s continuing participation has made it easier for searchers to solve the poem or not. Many people feel that it is beneficial to hear every word Forrest has to offer, and some try to steer clear and see it as more noise. But it’s hard to turn away from any sources, either Forrest, the blogs and threads, the videos (Pinyon nuts…), mysterious websites (wwwh), etc.

    Would you prefer to sit in a room at a monastery with a parchment of the poem and be left undisturbed?

    Helen: “He has likened finding WWWH to baking a cake – we need all the ingredients to make it right. This suggests that you can’t truly solve WWWH without understanding some of the rest of the clues, and yet…. people have managed to “solve” it (the first two clues) without doing so? My brain boggles to work out how this.”makes any sense.”

    Yes, Helen, I feel that it is logical to need to solve for wwwh in order to continue, but you need all the ingredients to make it right. So if you need to solve for wwwh prior to understanding the rest of the clues, then how is this possible? That is of course for each searcher to determine, but I believe that the poem is written in such a way that the self-referential aspects of it will provide the clarification of correctness or incorrectness of clues. In other words, there is a continual turning back to the source. Kind of an unwinding of the thread of oil in the turning glycerin cylinder to find out where the drops of oil originate. And if we think of the poem Little Gidding that Forrest has apparently associated with the poem, this makes even more sense. Regarding the status of the people who may have solved the first two clues, they don’t know who they are, neither do you or I, and we each have our own ideas to attend to which are more important and time-sensitive.

    JCM: “Helen – Thanks for the refreshing discussions you have engendered here, they have been few and far between for a while now.”

    Affirmative.

    JCM cont’d.: “It is this concept of making a cake that caused me to rethink everything, go through all my research and writings, and reformat and rethink all of it the last few months. I look at it this way; all the correct ingredients are needed in order to find the chest. f, I believe, has laid them out: the poem, TTOTC, a word that is key, Google Earth/good map; he has even added sprinkles and said that TFTW has hints that will also help a person, and it is not just the unintentional clue. From his statements, there are hints in the TFTW stories just like TTOTC. Then there are all of his other statements, writings, posts, comments, etc.; I focus on the ones where he specifically is talking about the clues or anything related to people finding the treasure chest. The troublesome part is that there is no measurements for these ingredients, so we are left to experiment and figure it out. Before f commented about “a word that is key,” I discovered what I will also call my word that is key. It has given a perspective to the poem that helps eliminate some of its vagueness, made the first clue unmistakably clear (and confirmed the hints for the first clue I had found in TTOTC before discovering this word) and made the other clues in the poem understandable, at least once I am able to pin them down in the poem. I say understandable, because it is only enough to point me in the right direction and provide understanding of what to look for with the other clues and have confidence in their solutions as I figure them out. My word that is key does not spell everything out, allowing one to just go take a walk and pick up the chest. It is like f said, the clues are difficult to figure out and will require a lot of thinking, analysis, planning, and imagination, amongst other things; even with all the ingredients, the cake still takes time to bake. I have been to my search area a number of times, I go, test out ideas and thoughts, take pictures, and try to take it all in, then I go back home, think about all of it some more, study the pictures and the maps, and look at the geography of the area. Slowly it is making sense (probably because I am slow), and I keep asking myself each time I get one step further, what took me so long to see that? If this is the right spot, I can understand how “certainly more than several” got the first clue correct, why only several got the second clue, and why people have walked past the chest and the other seven clues without noticing them. The clues ARE difficult to figure out. Just figuring out which words are the clues in the poem is tough, and I think this is why f has said no one has provided a correct solution past the second clue (I would still like to know how it was that a man was closest when some women have been close too, yet only two clues have been supposedly solved with a number of searchers having been within 200-500 feet — I suspect that the man got at least one of the later clues correct, or maybe thought that something in the poem was the third clue but isn’t a clue according to f). I know I am just as likely to be wrong as everyone else is, and has been. I have enough confidence from what I have discovered to keep that hope glimmering, but I will not be convinced I am right until I am staring at the chest. Congratulations to those who made it through this book I just wrote!!! ”

    Thanks for your congratulations, JCM, as I did read every word. I reprinted it here because I think it’s a reasonable account of someone exploring their own thoughts and processes out loud about the cake, and reveals the circular nature, the contradictions, the hope with possible progress, and other elements that searchers may be experiencing.

    Now, I would certainly not expect everyone to read every word of my preposterous post.

    I believe that the poem, without the divergent techniques ff noted and others, without the credentials and professional justifications of previous hunts or huntsetters or “rules”, and with the words alone and their meanings properly understood within their supporting context, will direct you right to a patch of earth that will make you (er, me) smile.

    And as others have stated in this thread, I hope (and do not expect) for that anticipated event to not outlive Forrest and the rest of us.

    Thanks to Helen and all the other noble efforts of this thread. I appreciate the great input from the usual suspects, such as E*, Anna, Astree, The Wolf (you wanna talk Erroll Flynn again?), and others unmentioned.

    SYand42lbsHeavier,
    Halogetter

    • E* says:

      Halogetter – I did read every word of your post,…which included those of all the other fine searchers,…twice. Thank you for taking the time to consider all of these thoughts,…and to respond to them with your wise insights (which I miss terribly,…so please do not stop posting here,…and join us over with the A-Team again soon, OK?). You wrote:

      So what was Forrest thinking when he finalized the poem, and asked himself “Hmmm, I wonder how long it will take for someone to get this”, especially considering that he said “Show it to your kids. They’ll get it.” (Which, by the way, begs the question as to by “it” did he mean get the poem, or get “it”, as in the “it” in the poem, but I digress…) And he has mentioned both next week and a thousand years.

      I sure hope when he said, “They’ll get it.”,…that Forrest didn’t mean that it will take AT LEAST until the next generation,…for the Bronze Chest to be located and retrieved (get it??? that, “They’ll get it”,…”your kids” will,…much later???). I couldn’t resist…

      • E* says:

        Halogetter – And about Errol Flynn,…from Forrest’s blog (and from the TTOTC book, right?):

        http://www.oldsantafetradingco.com/blog/mirror-on-my-bathroom-wall

        “One of my early dreams was to be a great movie star like Errol Flynn because he was handsome and made a lot of money. All of the requirements to that end were within me, save looks and talent, which is a failing I still am fraught to overcome. I felt better after my mom told me that being broke was sanitary….

        When I reached middle age I forgave myself for not having been nominated best actor and started writing prose, which resulted in the creation of a few books.”

        Note to Forrest – It isn’t over until it’s over. There is still time to win that Best Actor category,…for your Academy Award-winning movie that we will make. And then the creation of those “few books” will have taken you straight forward,…to your dream. 🙂

        • anna says:

          Here, Here E*
          If Suzanne Sommer’s Hollywood director friends aren’t already working on a script for the huntsetter, Forrest should consult you on the script and actors.

          • E* says:

            anna – Thank you for your confidence in my good taste. And, of course,…Brad would be Forrest’s understudy,…just in case he finds the path to my Hidey Spot to be, “too far to walk” now,…or that meeting My Grizz,…without a Golden trout in hand,…is beyond his definition of “brave and in the wood”. 🙂

            • Andrew Jef says:

              E*, this is my first (and probably last) posting for fun/amusement that doesn’t specifically relate to the search itself.
              I have thought about a movie about all this, and since Hollyweird is so hung-up on youth and beauty, my first choice
              of an actor to portray FF would be Woody Harrelson. Behind-the-scenes, of course the real FF would be an excellent
              choice for story/fact consultant. Many of the searchers could probably portray themselves, if interested and available.
              Unfortunately, there could be a little obstacle to overcome in the actual shooting of some of the footage. But only a
              little bit of onsite footage. I don’t want to disclose more about this right now, as I am still an active searcher, “competing”
              with all of you fine folks. Good luck, everyone. This is all just my opinion. Yours may differ. Please stay safe.

    • anna says:

      Halogetter, great to see you back. Just finished reading your synopsis of opinions, thoroughly enjoying your intelligent analysis of Forrest, the huntsetter… and the rest of us. Not sure where I fit on your 3 bears scale of intelligence. I have golden locks, just not keys to papa bear’s golden lock. Thank you for taking time to present thoughtworthy discussions all. Engaging in your thought process made an enjoyable evening! 🙂

      • E* says:

        anna – Your comment about Goldilocks was so witty! Thank you. But then,…as usual,…I googled that story,…remembering I had found a different version for it. So now I am wondering just what KIND of reference Halogetter was making,…in his post. Hmmmmm:

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Story_of_the_Three_Bears

        “The original tale has three bachelor bears living in a house in the forest, and a dirty old woman as the story’s antagonist.”

        🙂

    • astree says:

      Halogetter,

      Nice to see you posting again, and well-presented summary of ideas. Thank-you. Are you still plugging away at this full speed, but just not participating in the blogs anymore?

      I notice that a majority of the comments on this subject (the ‘goodness’ / fidelity of the puzzle) have a negative bias, which we know is status quo the longer a puzzle goes unsolved. So, I’d like to offer an alternate take on this:

      1) The puzzle Is self-contained, and external research is not required
      2) The puzzle Is extremely compact
      3) The puzzle Is extremely concise
      4) A child has a fair chance at understanding how to begin the chase
      5) The puzzle Is extremely difficult, but not impossible.
      6) Persistent analysis is important
      7) Imagination is important ( so, with these two points, a whole brain approach )
      8) The puzzle provides step-by-step confirmation, on multiple levels
      9) The puzzle will lead on directly to the treasure, such that phrases like “boots on the ground” and “going out on a search” are not meaningful

      If the above are true, Forrest is one of, if not the, best puzzle creator of our time.

      How would people react?

      Max: “Unbelievable. I still can’t get my head around it”

      Pluto: “I knew it.”

      SpellBound: “I’m so relieved that this is finally over. Everything Forrest said makes sense now.”

      GelatoIndulgenCES: “I’ll never be fooled like that again. When’s the next puzzle coming out”

      PaulBunion: “Now I know, why it was not far, but too far to walk”

      Of course, we have hundreds (thousands?) of examples of why the above can’t be the case, but it only takes one example to show that it’s true.

      By the way, you mention Shaun Whitehead, but I didn’t see any posts by him, is he/she posting under another name?

      Good Luck,
      astree

      • Jesse says:

        1) The puzzle Is self-contained, and external research is not required

        Astree what the @#%¥ are you even talking about. You have zero proof.

        • Helen says:

          Jesse, Astree’s suggestion may not be literally and completely true (and remember, it is just an opinion) but there may be merit to it, based on what Forrest has said himself:

          1. “And to many searchers I should also suggest that you take another look at your mistakes. The answers may not be nearly as complicated as you are making them.”

          2. “Please go back to the poem and look at maps for your answers.”

          3. “Some searchers overrate the complexity of the search. Knowing about head pressures, foot pounds, acre feet, bible verses, Latin, cubic inches, icons, fonts, charts, graphs, formulas, curved lines, magnetic variation, codes, depth meters, riddles, drones or ciphers, will not assist anyone to the treasure location, although those things have been offered as positive solutions. Excellent research materials are TTOTC, Google Earth, and/or a good map.f”

          [I make no apologies for repeating this yet again in these comments, as it is so important.]

          Forrest appears to be indicating that the deep research that many searchers are employing is not necessary to find his treasure.

          • astree says:

            Helen,

            Out of curiousity, which of the possibilities listed, are most unlikely in your view?

            Thanks,
            astree

            • Helen says:

              Astree, I think all of the possibilities that you mentioned, number 8 is the most unlikely. but I would add one caveat. Forrest’s quotes about the proverbial child are usually presented out of context. Many times Forrest has only mentioned the child in response to a specific question about children.

              Even if Forrest does believe that a child would have a better chance of solving his puzzle, this doesn’t make it true. On the back of the book Masquerade, the publishers promised that “the treasure is as likely to be found by a bright child of 10 with an understanding of language, simple mathematics and astronomy as it is to be found by an Oxford Don”.

              Show the Masquerade solution to your favorite bright 10 year old and watch the expression on their face.

              • Helen says:

                Please travel back in time by 30 seconds and read my first sentence as:

                Astree, I think all of the possibilities that you mentioned are reasonable, but number 8 is the most unlikely 😉

              • astree says:

                Hi Helen,

                Thanks for your responses. I certainly understand your reservations about #8, and I think only the solution would give us a chance to judge that; but, I think as you and Tamara have previously indicated, that it would be one of the criteria for a good puzzle.

                I don’t think a child will solve this, either. But, what I was trying to say was that they might have some very good (better than most adult) ideas about how to start it.

                Time travel – that’s another puzzle 🙂

                astree

      • astree says:

        It is offered as an alternate possibility. You don’t know if it’s correct or not, and just because you haven’t found it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Forrest has emphasized repeatedly, to look at the poem. Why the hostility?
        .

      • E* says:

        Astree – I liked your list of NINE items,…but could we discuss your number nine?:

        9) The puzzle will lead on directly to the treasure, such that phrases like “boots on the ground” and “going out on a search” are not meaningful.

        Are you making a veiled reference there,…to the Madison River Foundation’s use of the alternate phrase, “Boots in the Water” here? That was, “From there it’s no place for the meek” (who will inherit the EARTH),…and “Your effort will be worth the cold.”

        http://www.madisonriverfoundation.org/projects.php

        “The Foundation’s key goals include “Boots in the Water” projects that apply conservation and preservation for real-world protection of the Madison. Ranging from fencing, well-drilling, fish rescue, and fish barriers to willow planting and in-stream habitat improvements, we’re going all out to get the job done . . . and done well.”

        I found that in my first three weeks of online research, btw,…in March of 2013. As well as the solutions for my Forrest’s Plan A and Forrest’s Plan B solves. I didn’t put my trail runners on the ground,…or into a bank beaver hole,…along the fishing trail,…on the Madison River,…until the week of July 28th, 2013. 🙂

      • Halogetter says:

        Astree,
        I’m still engaged with the poem. I did see some of what you called negative bias, but I read it more as inherent frustration, which I tried to address.

        Astree’s List:

        “1) The puzzle Is self-contained, and external research is not required
        2) The puzzle Is extremely compact
        3) The puzzle Is extremely concise
        4) A child has a fair chance at understanding how to begin the chase
        5) The puzzle Is extremely difficult, but not impossible.
        6) Persistent analysis is important
        7) Imagination is important ( so, with these two points, a whole brain approach )
        8) The puzzle provides step-by-step confirmation, on multiple levels
        9) The puzzle will lead on directly to the treasure, such that phrases like “boots on the ground” and “going out on a search” are not meaningful”

        First, having read virtually everything that Astree has ever written, this list surprised me somewhat. Some people might mistakenly view Astree as someone who is wasting time with all those aspects that Forrest criticized as being offered as positive solutions, which Helen correctly quoted above. If you read Astree’s ongoing Codes and Ciphers thread, which just passed 50k hits, you might think that Astree is off in lalaland wasting time analyzing the very things that Forrest noted as “overrating the complexity of the search”. I believe that such a view would be missing the mark regarding Astree’s thinking, which only Astree knows with certainty. I believe that a lot of Astree’s investigations, and the far-flung ventures by E* as well, are much like those of very broad-minded scientists, who are willing to travel to obscure or distant points in order to gain wisdom and perspective, and hopefully become more wise, armed and dangerous, before returning to a more simple place. You can never tell which line of investigation will illuminate something basic that you might have missed. I’m not sure I am making myself understood here. But suffice it to say that I appreciate Astree’s and E*’s multivalent work.

        Back to the list:
        1) Yes. This does not mean that external research will not help, and I have done tons of it. But the operative word here is “required”, and I think that’s right.
        2) Yes. There is great precision here, yet in a very curious way the precision only comes into focus when the correct thread is recognized. Otherwise the poem seems vague and applicable to limitless solutions. The nature of its precision is in part that it is camouflaged by a multitude of apparently legitimate yet incorrect paths.
        3) The poem is short, compact, concise, and Forrest has backed this up regarding his comments about “every word”, etc. He could have distilled it further, I believe, but then it wouldn’t be much of a poem, and I think that was very important to him. The poemness is critical, and used by Forrest for important reasons, I believe.
        4) This statement is exactly what I was getting at in my previous post. Not that most children could readily solve the entire poem, but that they might readily get to the heart of the beginning. Helen’s comments about this were good as well, that the implication by Forrest is not that children were most apt to solve the whole thing.
        5) I would state it this way: The poem structure (not puzzle) is extremely elusive (rather than difficult), but not impossible. The poem is simple, but elusive. This gets back to the idea of precision and conciseness.
        6) Persistent analysis is important. Persistent analysis is important. Persistent analysis. Persistent analysis. Persistent analysis. “Return to the poem”.
        7) Yes. Wholebrain it.
        8) Yes.
        9) This may be the most controversial of the bunch. The boots on the ground thing is taken very personally by lots of people. And at the heart of this question is the apparent conflict of Forrest’s stated intention to get people out to taste the sunshine and get into the woods, but alternatively, and said in many ways (including very clearly in writing in tftw), that searchers should have a clear idea of where the chest is located before they go. Which is it? I generally agree with what Astree says here, and also that you “retrieve” the chest, not search for it. The searching is done in the poem and with “maps”. However, I disagree with this in part, as I feel that there is one final step to be taken, one final key to be turned, out in the field. And it’s essential. Although even that final turn is derived from the poem; it’s not based on brute-force combing of the ground. And I think you can fuggeddabout the hardware such as metal detectors, etc. (unless you’re searching in the snow, which I won’t comment on…).

        Jesse correctly points out that Astree has zero proof, and this applies to everyone at the moment.

        Halogetter

        • E* says:

          Halogetter – Thank you for your recognition of what you referred to as the “multivalent work”,…that Astree and I have been doing on these blogs,…and in our research for our posts here. Next,…I would like to introduce Douglas Adams,…and, “The Restaurant at the End of the Universe”,…where I am headed now,…to get a bite to eat. And to consider the number 42 over lunch. What was that the answer to, again???? 😉

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwNaZEs_F98

          • E* says:

            Halogetter – When I got back from having lunch at “The Restaurant at the End of the Universe”,…on one of my “far flung ventures”,…I remembered that a searcher at Dals’ mentioned something about mirrored locations he had found,…above and below the Equator,…that pertain to The Chase. Which made me think of the 42.2 seconds it takes for the Gravity train to get from one location to the other,…through the center of the Earth:

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_elevator

            “In the 17th century, British scientist Robert Hooke presented the idea of an object accelerating inside a planet in a letter to Isaac Newton. A gravity train project was seriously presented to the Paris Academy of Sciences in the 19th century. The same idea was proposed, without calculation, by Lewis Carroll in 1893 in Sylvie and Bruno Concluded.”

            Which made me think of the mirrored location I found for my spot,…using a REAL globe at the library,…which corresponded to a point on Wilkes’s pathway,…Southwest of Austrailia,…which he followed to discover Antartica:

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Exploring_Expedition

            Which made me think of the first line in The Poem:

            “As I have gone alone in there”

            Which made me think of Rear Admiral Richard E. Bird Jr.,…and his discovery in a plane of the North and South poles,…as well as HIS Antarctic expeditions,…and the book he wrote,…called “Alone”:

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_E._Byrd

            And then I thought of the related Hollow Earth theory (mentioned in that link):

            “Some adherents to the Hollow Earth hypothesis believe that Byrd flew over the North Pole and into the hollow earth in February 1947 and that he kept a secret diary of the incident. This belief was first published in 1957 in F. Amadeo Giannini’s book The Worlds Beyond the Poles. Giannini writes that Byrd encountered a humanoid being from another “world” who warned humanity to pursue peace and not war. He also reported that Byrd spotted a living wooly mammoth near the North Pole.”

            It’s ALL about The Chase, IMO. 😉

            Maybe later we can discuss the awesome photo I took of a cliff face yesterday,…next to the river,…around the corner from my Gypsy Wagon Found Object location (not posted on Dal’s contest page),…which contained a blaze-ing Double Rainbow (when I came back to enlarge it on the computer)? What was the number of degrees,…for the viewing angle,…to the red color,…at the top of a rainbow arch again?:

            http://askabiologist.asu.edu/sites/default/files/resources/articles/seecolor/rainbow42degree.jpg

        • astree says:

          Halogetter,

          Thanks much for your generous comments, and the well structured response. One of the reasons for listing the point-by-point, is that it allows exactly for the type of responses that you and Helen have made, and allows us to examine various factors in the way we think of the poem.

          Agree with you, too, on the “discouraged vs. negative” bias – made that same comment in this thread several days ago.

          Assuming the treasure actually exists, I see two major points of controversy as

          1) need for external information (aside from a good map)
          2) the need for “boots on the ground” and “searching”

          The first point has been covered, and regarding 2) Forrest has said, if I interpret him correctly, that the solution will allow a person to walk right to the treasure, with confidence.

          Glad you are still in the chase, and good luck,
          astree

        • JCM says:

          Halogetter / astree – With regard to #9 and boots on the ground, I 100% agree that once the clues ARE understood and HAVE BEEN figured out correctly, that the poem will lead one straight to the chest, definitely a retrieval, not a search. It is “the getting” to the ARE and HAVE BEEN which must be considered given the nature of this challenge. My conclusion is that one will probably go through a number of searches at the location to understand all the details and intricacies needed to connect the dots and overcome the wiles f has thrown into it.

          “And at the end, the one who finds the gold will not feel lucky, but instead, will ask himself, “what took me so long?”” f

          Feeling “lucky” is hitting a hole in one while golfing.
          “What took me so long” is the result of multiple attempts, reassessments, and lots of effort.

          “I said in my book that the solution will be difficult but not impossible.”

          Considering that the nine clues in the poem are unknown and their meanings need to be figured out, the likelihood that someone is going to (1) correctly figure out each of the nine clues in the poem AND (2) get the correct interpretation of each of the nine clues the first time out is a little more than I can buy into or believe is realistic. Experiences of all searchers thus far certainly confirm this conclusion to date, including those who figured out one or more of the clues correctly and went by the tc.

          “If it was easy anyone could do it. Whoever finds the treasure will mostly earn it with their imagination.” f

          Because f states that it will be mostly imagination that will earn it, I don’t see this as a mathematical “type” solution that solves cleanly and precisely with no ambiguity, effectively the points that Helen and Tamara have made on this thread. I see it more like a 3D wood type puzzle; you don’t pick it up the first time and solve it correctly. These take a lot of trial and error to figure out and understand the movements and processes required to get it right; but once understood, one can quickly and exactly complete the puzzle, or in the case of the poem, go straight to the chest.

          I like this statement from f’s book, To Far Too Walk:
          “A dare went out to everyone who possessed a sense of wanderlust; study the clues in the book and thread a tract through the wiles of nature and circumstance to the treasure.”

          Wanderlust – strong longing for or impulse toward wandering
          Study – the activity or process of learning about something
          Thread – to make one’s way through or between
          Wile – a trick or stratagem intended to ensnare or deceive

          The finder is going to be someone who can do and get through these four words. With this statement, I am not readily willing to accept that f intended or wanted this to be found on one trip out. I think the person that finds the tc will be intimately familiar with and have a profound knowledge and understanding of the whole “tract” of land where the tc is hidden through first hand experience. The effort and time spent in this area searching and exploring will afford the finder a complete appreciation and love for the place, just like f has of it, by the time they arrive at the spot.

          To sum up what I think of this topic and assuming that the tc can be found… I actually do think and agree it is possible that a person could determine the correct solution and go straight to the tc on their first time out IF they can connect all the dots, but the probability of the “dot connecting” occurring “the first time out” is not one I will place any money or expectations on. It will be the perseverance of failed searches and the lessons learned that yield the fruit required to find the tc; it is just how we as humans accomplish things.

          • E* says:

            JCM – Excellent post. Thank you! I especially like what you wrote here:

            I like this statement from f’s book, To Far Too Walk:
            “A dare went out to everyone who possessed a sense of wanderlust; study the clues in the book and thread a tract through the wiles of nature and circumstance to the treasure.”

            Wanderlust – strong longing for or impulse toward wandering
            Study – the activity or process of learning about something
            Thread – to make one’s way through or between
            Wile – a trick or stratagem intended to ensnare or deceive

            IMO,…this Myth covers ALL of those bases,…and is something I envision,…when I imagine going out to my spot (but I think you may have forgotten the word “clues”,…that Forrest used in that quote,…but I have not forgotten to have a ‘clew’ here,…courtesy of Ariadne):

            http://www.maicar.com/GML/000Images/aim/ariadne4503.jpg

            http://www.cropcircleconnector.com/2014/Turija/ariadne5.jpg

            • E* says:

              JCM – And do you,…or does anyone else,…remember what Forrest said about the CLUES being in The Poem and the HINTS being in the book or something? Doesn’t that quote you used above contradict that????

              “…study the clues in the book…”

              Hmmmmmm…..

              • E* says:

                JCM – I know, I know,…The Poem is in the book. But why didn’t he say,…study the clues in The Poem,…in that quote?

              • JCM says:

                E – Thanks for your compliments. f has crossed the use of clues and hints so many times that I give him a pass on any consideration of contradiction. I just read what he is saying and try to figure out what it is that he is attempting to communicate. I have said enough things wrong in my life that I hope people never talk about how big of a contradiction I am. Best I never run for a public office.

            • E* says:

              JCM – And I found another ‘clew’ in a children’s book,…that reminded me of Forrest,…which I shared on another blog:

              E* on April 26, 2015 at 8:34 am said:
              Everyone – On potential “blazes”:

              E on April 26, 2015 at 6:11 am said:
              Your comment is awaiting moderation.

              Chris – I believe there are “blazes” also,…located in concentric circles,…gradually pulling you inward,…to THE BLAZE,…in the vicinity of the Bronze Chest. You wrote:

              dalneitzel.com/2014/08/26/blaze/#comment-85555

              “My OPINION is that Hammer is correct. The Blaze, as seen from Google Earth, will tell you that you are close. In my opinion there are three more blazes when boots are on the ground. I feel I must say this though. What I believe or think is probably wrong. Only FF knows.”

              I was inspired by a page from this book, “A Big Ball of String”,…which shows the little boy,…who is sick in bed,…using his ball of string to attach to darts he is throwing at the wall,…and then pulling them back (@1:12):

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTFCrH2VY78

              There is no dartboard,…but I imagined one. The outermost rings can be seen from Forrest’s plane (and Google Earth),…while the innermost rings,…and the bullseye blaze,…can be seen only while having boots on the ground. IMO!

          • Halogetter says:

            JCM-

            That is a very well constructed post with good references. I concur with what E* said about your analysis of Forrest’s provocative statement in tftw, and the focus on Forrest’s specific, carefully chosen words, and your definitions:

            “A dare went out to everyone who possessed a sense of wanderlust; study the clues in the book and thread a tract through the wiles of nature and circumstance to the treasure.”

            “Wanderlust – strong longing for or impulse toward wandering
            Study – the activity or process of learning about something
            Thread – to make one’s way through or between
            Wile – a trick or stratagem intended to ensnare or deceive”

            You could almost make a short poem out of his sentence:

            A dare went out to everyone
            Who possessed a sense of wanderlust;
            Study the clues in the book
            And thread a tract through the wiles
            Of nature and circumstance
            To the treasure

            There are certainly many possibilities for how long it may take a given chaser to solve all of the clues and walk to the treasure, with varying degrees of field work. When I stated my view like this:

            “I feel that there is one final step to be taken, one final key to be turned, out in the field. And it’s essential. Although even that final turn is derived from the poem; it’s not based on brute-force combing of the ground.”

            …I was assuming the position of having all 9 correct clues. I think it brings you very close, and then there is one final turn. That does not mean that it may not take someone numerous efforts and excursions in the field to help sort out the poem correctly, as you are outlining here. That’s a very distinct possibility.

            If I used my own solution as an example, I would be pretty darn close to the correct spot if my last clue solution was wrong, but I still would not be there. I do NOT believe that the 9 clues get you to a general area and then you really need to search through a river valley or all over a mountain pass…

            It’s refreshing to see this kind of effort and analysis, without people spilling their own beans or cutting and insulting others.

            Halogetter

            • JCM says:

              “I feel that there is one final step to be taken, one final key to be turned, out in the field. And it’s essential. Although even that final turn is derived from the poem; it’s not based on brute-force combing of the ground.”

              Are you thinking that this is where “a word that is key” comes into play?

              I absolutely agree that there is no brute-force combing of an area that will be required for finding the tc. Anyone doing that needs to go home and play Canasta. The clues will take you precisely to the tc when solved correctly.

              I had some email conversation with Tony D. who wrote the Daily Beast articles and asked him about f’s statement in regards to the blaze. He essentially said that f was really trying to throw people off at that point with the many different things that a blaze could be; I don’t know what you consider to be the 9 clues (the 9 sentences, Stanzas 2-4, etc.), but I see that needing to turn a key at or around this point just may be required. Working on my own current solution to the 9 clues, my understanding of f’s use of the word “blaze” and what it might be is now significantly based upon a result of out in the field visiting and observing… I would say boots on the ground, but BOG has walked past the other seven clues and the chest; a lot more attention, observance, thought, and imagination seem to be required to not miss those other seven clues and the chest, both before and when out in the field.

            • Liviu says:

              Halo,
              you said that one could almost make a short poem out of his sentence:

              “A dare went out to everyone
              Who possessed a sense of wanderlust;
              Study the clues in the book
              And thread a tract through the wiles
              Of nature and circumstance
              To the treasure”

              That passage and the one about the X being on the map in spirit are the ones that intrigue me the most.

              Back to the short poem and possible interpretation, my take would be:

              “A dare went out to everyone
              Who possessed a sense of wanderlust;
              Study the clues in the book
              And thread a tract through the wiles of nature
              And circum-stance to the treasure”

              I do feel like he’s talking Ariadne and going in circles.

          • astree says:

            Fantastic post, JCM. I think several of the points can’t be answered until the 9 clues are known.

            If I correctly interpret the essence of these discussions, over the past few days, the problem is to correctly identify the set of 9 clues.

            If so, the hypothesis is

            “The poem contains enough information to confidently generate a list of 9 clues”

            and, to put a spin on some of the things Forrest has said, the “research question” becomes

            “How can I use this information to correctly generate the 9 clues, as Forrest intended, that will allow me to walk to the treasure, with confidence?”

            It’s all about the clues.

            astree

            • Eliza says:

              Forgive me for being a little off-topic, but does anyone know if Forrest has any Scandinavian ancestry?

              • astree says:

                .
                Eliza –

                I don’t know – the name seems more British / Scottish / Welsh / someone mentioned Irish in one of the blogs.

                I spent some time looking at the “ASGard” and

                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bifr%C3%B6st

                in the early part of this hunt.

                astree

                • Eliza says:

                  Thanks astree.

                  I was just wondering if he might be Finnish.

                  Liz

                • astree says:

                  Eliza,

                  Are you asking that because they called him Forrest Finn in the interview broadcast last night?

                  http://www.koat.com/news/full-interview-forrest-finn-dishes-on-hidden-treasure/32603446

                • E* says:

                  Eliza – I posted some thoughts about Forrest’s potential ancestry a while back,…over on Forrest’s blog. I was also looking into the statement he made that he had worked at one time for the USFS,…because I knew there were two cabins constructed in the 1930s pretty near my spot. Here’s what I found on the Finns,…who were CLEARLY “in the wood”:

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Log_cabins

                  According to C. A. Weslager, the Finns had a “close attunement” with the forests, and both groups had well-developed forest industries.[5] Weslager goes on to say:

                • Eliza says:

                  Yes astree.

                  It was just a little joke. My husband did not think it was particularly clever.

                • astree says:

                  🙂

                  True story – some years ago, a few friends of mine were at an arcade, and wanted to play a particular pinball machine. Someone else was already playing it, they struck up some conversation with him. As this dragged on, game after game one of the friends asked asked the player, based on accent, if he was Swedish.

                  “No, I’m Finnish”

                  The other friend, exasperated and impatience, finally let loose with:

                  “*&$*# right you’re finnish. Now get out of here and give someone else a chance”

                  I don’t think the player thought it was too clever, either.
                  .

                • Ur A Lic says:

                  Finnish people are ethnically and linguistically different than Scandinavian people. Scandinavian people are Germanic, Finns are Uralic.

                  A Finn has more in common with a Hungarian than a Swede.

                • E* says:

                  Astree – I tried to respond to your link about the Bitfrost,…and rainbows,…but my comment just disappeared,…twice. If you would like to see it,…I posted it on Poem 2:4 over at ttotc.com. Not sure what’s happening here,…or WHY??? That thread,…and most of them,…are running great, btw (not like Blog Buzz or The Lounge!).

              • anna says:

                Mindy has an interesting post on her blog regarding an older Norwegian version of Fenn… Kven. Much of northern Norway was known as Kvenland. Forrest certainly has Scandinavian looks and we know those Vikings invaded and stayed in Great Britian.

                Let’s ask Forrest if he prefers Lefsa over porage. That should tell us if he’s Irish or Norse. If he answers potatoes then he’s a mix 🙂 just kidding.

            • JCM says:

              astree – I agree that critical to finding the chest is to (1) determine what the 9 clues in the poem actually are and (2) figure out what those clues mean so you know precisely where to go. Without accomplishing these two goals, no tc.

              With the hypothesis that is proposed, our hope will be that it is correct and that it will hold as we test it.

              You don’t need to answer this publicly for all to see (I don’t think the reading public needs to get any freebies), but what are the tests we can do that will return the results we expect (confident identification of what all 9 clues in the poem are so we know what in the poem we need to figure out the meanings of) and not disprove the hypothesis? In my limited brain capacity, the only real test which doesn’t disprove it is actually locating the chest. Perhaps you have thought about this a lot more and have some good ideas that can only be arrived at with some cerebral calorie burn.

              Would a different hypothesis or theory be better suited where the only non-disproof is the final answer that we are seeking and hope is correct?

              If f says that a person will go in confidence, what is it that might exist within all that has come out which can provide for that confidence without having found the chest? Is there more to f’s statement about searchers underestimating the importance of the first clue and having it nailed down than we are realizing? f’s use of the words “nailed down” would seem to infer that the first clue is not only determinable, but that it can be done so with confidence and surety (perhaps something that those who got it correct have not done); being an anchor that one can base the rest of their search upon.

              I think that is enough hyperbole for now. Lots of questions, no answers. And we all go back and ask “and just what is the first clue?” Still stuck at the beginning.

              • Steve says:

                JCM I think what you’re trying to say is figuring out what Forrest meant. Call them clues call them whatever you want… Definitionally A Word can mean many different things. So, how would a person know what Fenns words mean. Conversation like this is redundant and pointless over and over I hear people talk of how they can solve the poem just from the poem. I couldn’t more strongly disagree And since no one has actually done it it doesn’t matter what Forrest says or anyone has to say about this topic… It’s all hypothetical mumbo-jumbo.

              • astree says:

                Hi JCM,
                There was a long period of time (months / years?) after “A Treasure’s Trove” came out, during which people could not understand how Michael Stadther had hidden the location of key tokens, in the book. Quite a few, due to frustration, I suppose (and general human nature) were becoming hostile. Once people understood how the information was hidden, though, the clues and pictures defined fairly precise location of the tokens. People were convinced that the clues were confirmed, before they traveled for the retrieval.

                The clue confirmation hypothesis that we are talking about here, should have the same level of certainly as a puzzle like “A Treasure’s Trove” for one to feel confident before they leave home. This to match up with Forrest’s statements to that effect. It should be close enough to 100% that one is willing to make the trip, based on solid clue information (not hope), but I guess retrieving the chest would be the ultimate 100% confirmation.

                You wrote: “If f says that a person will go in confidence, what is it that might exist within all that has come out which can provide for that confidence without having found the chest? Is there more to f’s statement about searchers underestimating the importance of the first clue and having it nailed down than we are realizing?” If by “might exist with all that has come out” you mean blatantly posted in public forums / blogs, I’d say very little.

                astree

                • JCM says:

                  Human nature is very interesting. The frustration and hostility levels seem to be ever so slowly increasing with TTOTC. I think that as more failures occur with the passing of this year, that there will become an exponential increase in that frustration and hostility. People WANT a solution NOW and it is driving them crazy! And f sits there and tells us that the hiding spot and solution goes with him to the grave; it just drives people nuts. Anticipation and desire to have something are some of the most powerful human emotions, and f is a master at stirring and manipulating them in people.

                  I recall that f said at one point that he never read or studied about other treasure hunts and how they were set or designed; it wasn’t significant to the clues so I didn’t copy the reference. Because of that, I am not expecting the solution or the process to solve TTOTC to be one similar to what other hunts (e.g. A Treasure’s Trove) have been; I think f came up with something all his own. Because of that, I am not holding my breath that it will solve similar and cleanly like other hunts. Which is the whole point of Helen and Tamara on here, and Shaun White and his reasons for exiting this hunt. I am not claiming that it can’t confidently be solved up front similar to other hunts, we just don’t know what the full approach needs to be.

                  It is the process that I most wonder about. Yes, I think f intends for the clues and their meanings to be known and done so confidently without finding the chest, but is it in a manner where the 9 clues in the poem are clearly identified before knowing what any of those clues mean? And as for information outside the poem, can it really help? If there is information that can, it certainly isn’t blatantly posted and spelled out for us.

                  We just continue to slog it out. Good luck everyone!!!

                • astree says:

                  .
                  I wasn’t aware that Forrest had made that comment about other treasure hunts – thanks for relaying it.

                  The dicey part is making a committment to the puzzle, without having some sort of guarantee that it will meet the ‘clean solve’ requirement you mention (or, even, for that matter that there actually is a chest there). As said before, I think this part of it is ultimately a character judgement (that the treasure is hidden, like he says) and more tenuous, faith / hope (that there is a clean solution).

                  I wouldn’t have expected it to be like others, Forrest is quite unique and highly intelligent and creative.
                  .
                  I have seen Shaun’s name before, there is a Six Questions on this site with him. Where did you read that he is exciting this?

                  Good luck, too
                  astree
                  .

  28. Project Why says:

    Brilliant as always Halo. 🙂 And I don’t just say this because you mentioned what I said. I’m sure I would still say this even in words of appropriate dissuasion or for arguments sake, you had a different opinion. I’ll probably reread the entire thread again later and rethink it all, because I do believe it was long overdue, but for now, I too digress……….

  29. Halogetter says:

    E*: “I sure hope when he said, “They’ll get it.”,…that Forrest didn’t mean that it will take AT LEAST until the next generation,…for the Bronze Chest to be located and retrieved (get it??? that, “They’ll get it”,…”your kids” will,…much later???). I couldn’t resist…”

    E*, that’s a riot. That is one interpretation that I hope is not true, that it’ll take that long! Or that a kid will grow up spending his life trying to solve it and then finally get it.

    Again, I believe ‘they’ll get it’ is analogous to the ‘word that is key’ statement, in that both comments pertain to the beginnings of your efforts, along the lines of my key to the house reasoning above. And I think that he’s referring not only to the imagination and open-mindedness of children, but rather to something that may tend to be more present in their minds now, due to their age and current endeavors, that grownups may not have in the forefront of their thinking. I believe Forrest hinted at this in a completely different way once as well…

    Halogetter

    • anna says:

      Agree with you Halo, children’s open-mindedness, and willingness to rapidly change games when solves fail may factor as importantly as imagination.

    • E* says:

      Halogetter and anna – I have been twelve years old, now…for a whole lot of years. I hope that is helping me to solve the puzzle,…but I am sure it is driving moderators like Dal, Goofy and Jenny CRAZY! But I am having WAY too much fun with this,…to worry much about that. And I thank all of you participating searchers on these blogs,…and Forrest,…for making this all possible. I enjoy getting up every morning to participate in The Chase.

      And “the word that is KEY”,…to that contentment and fun,…has been TRULY not caring about finding the Bronze Chest. Instead,…I have had a “tight focus” on helping others to find the joy of discovery that I have,…by giving away LOTS of the details of my solves,…and sharing my found resources,…hoping that will help lead them to locate the Bronze Chest,…somehow. I have been trying to do this all along. Maybe that is why I was banned over at Dal’s the first time? 😉

  30. Project Why says:

    “9) This may be the most controversial of the bunch. The boots on the ground thing is taken very personally by lots of people. And at the heart of this question is the apparent conflict of Forrest’s stated intention to get people out to taste the sunshine and get into the woods, but alternatively, and said in many ways (including very clearly in writing in tftw), that searchers should have a clear idea of where the chest is located before they go. Which is it? I generally agree with what Astree says here, and also that you “retrieve” the chest, not search for it. The searching is done in the poem and with “maps”. However, I disagree with this in part, as I feel that there is one final step to be taken, one final key to be turned, out in the field. And it’s essential. Although even that final turn is derived from the poem; it’s not based on brute-force combing of the ground. And I think you can fuggeddabout the hardware such as metal detectors, etc. (unless you’re searching in the snow, which I won’t comment on…).”
    ——————————

    Everyday I wake up, at some point I say to myself, “Today’s the day. Today I’m going to solve it, I’m going to figure this thing out!! …..and yet I falter.

    Having a “clear idea”of where the chest is located before one sets out and “retrieving” it and “not searching” for it, …..that the searching is done in the poem and with “maps”, …..that there is one final key/essential to be turned, out in the field, — I also tend to agree with, but maybe I’m a little bit more in the middle as far as what I think it will take to find it.

    With the poem/book/other statements by Forrest Fenn Kerouac and perhaps a bottle of Brandy in tow, I set out to attempt to find it, …..I look up from the valley floor to face this El Capitan of a poem if only just to stare at and try figure out a route in my mind, …..but I can’t do JUST that. …..I become a Dharma Bum and began my own rucksack revolution, …..if only in my mind. “Why not?” I say to myself. “Isn’t this what he wanted?” So, …..I must also climb/BOG a little bit every now and then to test it out and see if any of my theories are correct, one step, one clue at a time, maybe in some way it is “brute-force”, but I don’t see it that way. It also requires much finesse, much thought. So maybe a combination of the two? “Maps”, IMO, will only take one so far. Not enough detail. Not enough information. IMO. Well, I can’t completely say that. The “right” map will put us in the correct area and I believe it will show us where to ~BEGIN, …..but to get from macro – micro, to mirror it, ….I believe it WILL require some struggle, some frustration, …..some expenditure of actual physical searching, before it is found, …..even if it is searching for the final clue/clues, even it is only to “retrieve” it. But in hindsight, I think, one will be able to slowly extinguish the flames of just how difficult they made it and their searching for it and will finally be able to say those long awaited words, “yes, I did walk straight to it, …..what took me so long?”

    Can the poem be solved completely or mostly from home first before embarking on this journey? …..Who knows? I’ve tried to with no success, …..or did I have success? 🙂 I guess it depends on how you measure it? Everyday that goes by, to me, is one step closer, I believe, to getting the correct ingredients to put together or put together, but probably won’t know till the end though. Some think that there is not a method for solving the clues at the different steps as one progresses through the poem, that it relies solely on “interpretation”? Well, to some degree it very well could be that way, …..maybe it is? Until it is completely solved or Forrest says, “Yes, that was correct”, …..it will not be possible to look back and determine that. When/if it is ever solved, I think one will THEN have the ability to reexamine every step and conclude that at certain steps there was confirmation of the previous, either from what we gathered from him or from the poem itself confirming itself or from both. I mean, if a theory you have feels right and the ingredients appear to be correct, then why not go with confidence? Why not test it out? Just because it isn’t right down the line, doesn’t mean at all stages of it, it WAS off. Reassess. Reanalyze.

    Personally, I will/have been for some time now, …..try to find a way up the cliff face by slowly traversing a path using a technique of step-by-step confirmation that can only be done in the field and brought back home for further study, …..like punching/positioning another spike, another anchor, …..each successive line/rope/teachers with ropes 🙂 in the poem confirming the other, knot-knot …..until that day comes when your able to finally reach the summit and look back at how you got there. And when superimposed in some way, it probably will look like an architectural plan of some sort and if not, it sure will resemble it in other ways. But unlike a cliff face, where there are usually several ways up it, …..as regards to this poem and it leading one directly to the end, …..there is only ONE place to start, …..and if we don’t begin in that specific spot, then we are never going to make it up no matter how hard we try. But is it is pointless? I don’t believe so. Regardless of where you start or search, …..it is experience. Even if it is in the wrong location, …..perhaps it can help us the next time? But one must always remember, …..without beginning at the correct starting point, there really is absolutely no way to confirm each clue with the next. Scratch. …..There is no way to confirm anything until it is found. …..Is it fair? It is what it is. He put out the golden carrot and we follow.

    For me, this is the only way I know. And I am fortunate enough to live close enough to a search area. Now, for someone more intelligent than myself, IF it is possible, …..one might only need to solve it ‘mostly’ from home and have it lead them to the correct search area and perhaps with a modest amount of looking can “retrieve” it.
    ——————————

    Now as far as Shaun Whitehead is concerned, I had the opportunity to talk with him a couple times. I know that he did indeed come across The Pond to search for it once and didn’t have any success. I think he did also get to meet Mr. Fenn. His problem with all of it was the same as many others. As a Creationeer/inventor, puzzler, solver of many, many events and hunt setter himself, I think he did come to a the realization that it did rely somewhat heavily on “interpretation” and could not continue in what would be for ~most, …..an exercise in futility, nor feel he could condone it on his site. I think he just felt that Forrest misrepresented this whole thing in the beginning, making it appear that he did want it found and that was solvable. And It very well could be, but from someone with his experience, …..it wasn’t.

    Personally, I don’t see how Mr. Fenn could accomplish what he wanted to without there being a degree of “interpretation” involved. I mean, I doubt it would last as long as he wanted it to/has or get people out there the way it has and will, if it were possible to be figured out with complete confirmation at every step. But that’s only an observation. 🙂 Again, it is his rules and we aren’t forced to participate. It could be completely solvable or at least mostly solvable before BOG, …..but I just haven’t been smart enough to figure that out yet. 🙁 But I’ll keep thinking…….. and I will continue my ascent as long as I feel I am making progress or I am keeping it in check.

    And with all that being said, …..tomorrow is my day off. Will I go out searching for the chest? Heck no!! I’m going to take my kid to the zoo. 🙂 Until I have more to go on, …..there are more important things to do. There is a time and place for everything. Maybe next week? 🙂

    • Halogetter says:

      PW-

      That’s an adventurous, personal story. And it reminds us again that none of the searches are for naught (as long as you don’t let it consume your finances or your life, or interfere with awesome trips with your kids to the zoo and elsewhere), and that all of the many thousands of forays into the Rockies for this chase have not yet yielded the chest. All of the searches don’t work except for the final one. And the people within striking distance of the search area might view it quite differently from those that are so far away, who may be limited to a few or no actual searches, so their approach must be different, more finalized in advance.

      I had wanted to say more about Shaun Whitehead’s comments, but declined to do so in my previous post. I’m glad you said this:

      “Now as far as Shaun Whitehead is concerned, I had the opportunity to talk with him a couple times. I know that he did indeed come across The Pond to search for it once and didn’t have any success. I think he did also get to meet Mr. Fenn. His problem with all of it was the same as many others. As a Creationeer/inventor, puzzler, solver of many, many events and hunt setter himself, I think he did come to a the realization that it did rely somewhat heavily on “interpretation” and could not continue in what would be for ~most, …..an exercise in futility, nor feel he could condone it on his site. I think he just felt that Forrest misrepresented this whole thing in the beginning, making it appear that he did want it found and that was solvable. And It very well could be, but from someone with his experience, …..it wasn’t.”

      I think you hit it pretty spot on. What Helen was saying made me think of a number of Shaun’s comments and his general view of this chase. There certainly is a level of frustration there as an experienced treasure hunter, and he may have been wise to consider if he should encourage people to do it or not on his site. Like I discussed above, most huntsetters look forward to a solve occurring in a reasonable amount of time, and this may appear too open-ended for Shaun. But I have a hunch he’s still putting some time into it.

      But I certainly don’t want to speak for Shaun, and I would welcome his own input here if he’s watching…

      Halogetter

  31. Spallies says:

    So this might have already been pointed out but “whose rules” for the poem would be Forrests rules since he wrote the poem so then they – his rules for capitalization – have been used correctly… Right? So he is answering yes… But you have to know what “his rules” are which “we don’t” for sure… so yes I am talking in circles 🙂 Boy this is a long thread… Hope it doesn’t come unraveled 🙂

  32. Dewey says:

    I am curious as to what’s going to be said about Forrest and the treasure hunt when the chest is found. Or what’s going to be said when no-one finds it after 20 years or more. That one is easy, nothing!

  33. bhndr says:

    What would be better left unsaid, what I said? One of the good things about living in this country is that you can say what you want. There will always be someone who doesn’t agree or gets upset by what’s said. My thought is how long is people going to stay interested? When they do lose interest who’s going to be the one to keep it going? There will probably always be someone willing to look for gold!

  34. bhndr says:

    How long are people going to stay interested? Forgive my grammar.

  35. astree says:

    .
    One of my recent favorites on The Chase in the media – short circuits the whole “Capitalization Rules” issue. …

    https://gma.yahoo.com/video/rich-mans-treasure-hunt-may-132308240.html @ 1:34

    http://www.chasechat.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/5p0ya-ToC_ABC_brown_03May15.jpg

    “Find the blaze”

    astree

    • E* says:

      astree – I noted that lack of Capitalization for “brown” also,…but couldn’t get the video to play yesterday,…to mark the time. Thank you for doing that. 🙂

  36. astree says:

    Indy wrote

    “Helen,

    I believe Forrest is stating it’s his rules. I would agree that “no rules” would be a problem, but it’s our role to figure out his rules and apply them to the poem.”

    Having spent some weeks pondering the gist of this and similar comments, here are some return comments:

    In our culture, we are normally accustomed to being given rules for processing various categories of information. By way of example, let’s use the structured study of mathematics, as we progress through schooling.

    We will normally begin with basic arithmetic, move on to algebra and geometries, and perhaps to the calculus, differential equations, non-linear systems, etc. . However, in all cases, we are generally rewarded with good grades for following the ‘rules’ we are taught, or conversely punished with bad grades if we have failed to perform the tasks according to the rules. Most people will not question the rules of mathematics, the ‘why’ of the rules, but rather being content to perform well using the rules on tests. In this way, I believe our educational system falls short – we generally do not struggle with, and therefore do not obtain an appreciation, of how the rules of mathematics were discovered (or invented, if you will). We do not understand the centuries of struggle by various highly intelligent individuals, to develop these rules.

    Importantly, we are generally not conditioned to finding the rules for ourselves. We are NOT even given a general idea of how to start looking for the rules.

    I propose that there ARE rules that apply to Forrest’s puzzle. However, Forrest is not going to spell them out for us; we need to discover and test them out, and that IS the test of his puzzle. In this way, if we imagine the poem-universe to contain its own set of laws (rules), then our job will be to recognize information and patterns, postulate ideas, hypothesize, and finally theorize, always remaining flexible until a comprehensive understanding of the poem-universe is reached. Theories are testable, and the fidelity of the theory depends on obtaining a comprehensive and cohesive set of rules, and application of the rules, to generate a solution that will leads to the treasure. Conversely, going on a treasure recovery trip with a weak (or non-existent) set of rules and application, will most likely lead to disappointment (although, personally, I would always allow for the highly unlikely).

    Using the Masquerade puzzle, a simple illustration of a rule that needed to be discovered, was the eye-to-furthest-extremity, to border letter. In hindsight, and before the rule was discovered, it would have been incorrect to say that no rules existed; it was only that it was yet to be discovered. Perhaps this gives us a way to orient our thinking with regard to Forrest’s puzzle.

    So, if you have faith that Forrest is being honest about the puzzle and the treasure, I believe it would be wise to pursue the rules (and, I realize that there is a set of puzzlers doing that, this is more of a reminder).

    astree

    • Eliza says:

      I think astree is right on target.

      Some rules that I think are helpful:

      0. Take astree very seriously.

      1. Combine letters from the beginnings and endings of NEARBY words to generate phrases.

      2. Using this technique, (and a few other common, cryptic-style word puzzle strategies), find your nine clues.

      3. Don’t even BEGIN to trust a clue unless you can find a second (twin) clue in the poem which matches it precisely (i.e, gives you the same answer, even if in different words).

      4. If the nine clues progressively involve smaller and smaller lengths of travel, be optimistic.

      5. If, when you take the first letter of each of the nine clues and they spell out something meaningful when combined (the author’s homage to Masquerade), be VERY optimistic.

      • astree says:

        I believe Forrest is extremely gifted in verbal processing, as well as some others. I agree with the ideas you mention, as to ways to search the poem – I believe I spent some time on each way. Agreed on looking at composite of finds, for summary confirmation (like the acrostic of the nine clues would be MY TREASURE, for example).

        There are other ways, too. For example, the letters in the corner of his poem are IDEA (and fits well with the “imagination” concept). IDEA is also found as the letters before and after the commas in the first verse. (having just commented to you on his use of the comma, in the Bigfoot Question / Reply just posted last night.).

        I don’t question whether many of these finds are in his poem, but the pragmatic question is which of them help with finding the treasure. I believe a lot of interesting, but non-applicable, work can be performed on what he did. Our job is to winnow away until finding something that moves in a meaningful direction – part of this is a test of will and perseverance.

        Thanks for your comments, Eliza. I think we are both firm believers, that there exists deeper levels to what Forrest did, which provide the necessary information.

        Side note: http://dictionary.reference.com/wordoftheday/2015/05/31/moonbow

        Have you seen one ?

        astree

        • Eliza says:

          astree-

          I’ve never seen that word before; the double o and the terminal …bow sure got my attention.

          As you probably know by now, I grab the first letters of every set of paragraphs I see.

          I hope you are not cross with me!

          Liz

  37. astree says:

    Liz,

    🙂

    I put one of my old avatars up.

    ( I think what you’re doing is great detective work )

    astree

  38. Halo says:

    I think by capitalizing all the letters like he did in response he is saying no he did not follow the rules also if you look at that stanza Halt and walk do not rhyme by doing that I think he is saying listen something is wrong here I’m not following the rules so the B is not necessarily a proper noun

    • Halo says:

      It could be a title of something the word title appears in the pome

      • Seeker says:

        Could the capitalizing of Brown be more for what brown represents, then brown as a name? Brown has a hint and the answer a noun.

        • Halo says:

          Brown is a description of something trout/bear/bat/eagle etc but not the reason for the Capitol B I think the landmark or home of brown is the reason for the Capitol B

          • Seeker says:

            Home as in habitation, Brown as in examples but not listed, location needs a Capital letter to be proper, Yet not in the area[s] of the chest. Am I close? to that Neighborhood.

            • Halo says:

              I was thinking along the line of something like this, let’s say a river ran by your business call B&S Steel and a chocolate lab was fenced there…..so put in below the home of Brown. The B is capitol because of the business name not that anything is brown other than the dog OR the business could be painted brown.

              • Seeker says:

                Ok I was thinking… Brown as a symbol, not unlike the American Bald Eagle. The Eagle’s habitation is USA, so the symbol of Brown is for Beaver who’s habitation is in Canada as in symbol. stanza’s 1and 2 are describing to be below hoB, The place for no meek is two folds as hoBrave and the backbone of the Rockies … the CD. The end is ever drawing nigh; semicolon as in 1/2 the distance of the range, no paddle up this creek~ narrow passage…just HLAWH.

                • Halo says:

                  Ok so the river is below your business or to the south of.
                  I’m looking at clues being close not large separation

                • Seeker says:

                  Halo,
                  This reply may be placed out of order to this discussion.

                  I like the overall idea here, and yes we can see it as different is size of area. I “think” the reason is how we [ searchers ] read the poem. Is reading the poem’s first 7 lines in a linear form to mean hoB must then be below those place of what those line refer to.
                  Or could it be that those lines and what they refer, to already be below hoB and still keep a linear, consecutive order to the process overall?

                  Joe, Billy and Bob, leave there home to go fishing in the river just south of where they live. The river is below the water tower.

                  Could the home be below the water tower as well, and still fall in lines as consecutive order? It may not be about the exact location, as much as the overall view.
                  The goal here is to find a single location [ the chest ] the clues lead to “that” precise location. But to understand how to get to that location the above example, doesn’t take the understanding how to get there out of order. Are we thinking too literal?

                  Fenn chose to place the clues in a poem form, and poems by nature give the freedom of, not only word use, but suggestive freedom as well. Is this the reason for the avenue of a poem vs. simply placing all the clue into the stories of the book one after the other?

                  Anyways, the Mystery continues.

  39. Kathryn says:

    Rules for grammar – many times are not used the same for poetry as for prose. I’ve seen many poems where grammar rules are intentionally broken to create emotion or some other affect. As for Brown, it could just be that he respects Brown or attributes reverence to Brown. Given the capitalization is in a poem, IMO there are no rules from a rule book, but rules from the heart. Brown, IMO, is special and so special that it is difficult to locate because what is special to one person may not be special to someone else. IMO Brown is not a name for a person or place – it is a name he gave to something in his own mind – and IMO that would make it exceedingly difficult to find Brown on the Internet or impossible. IMO not all of the clues are reachable via electronic devices some just require BOG. In my search, I named my “blaze” and capitalized her name. It means something to me, but I doubt it would mean anything to anyone else.

    • Seeker says:

      Kathryn,
      I agree with you. A place such as hoB is a given to the B as respect, as a possibility. Yet you also said;
      “In my search, I named my “blaze” and capitalized her name. It means something to me, but I doubt it would mean anything to anyone else.”

      Let run with this for a moment. You gave the Blaze a name and by doing so a noun… a person, place or thing. If FF did the same, how would we know? for anyone of the clues.

      In regard to respect, would it be logical that the same feelings of respect for what Brown refers to would be an overall feeling to most as well? or we come back to the same problem as why fenn see hoB that way. If others close to him wouldn’t know or be able to guess, how would the readers? Don’t get me wrong, I’m not downing this thought, I’m trying to logically use it.

  40. djjmciv says:

    It’s possible people may confuse Mr. Fenn being “cute” with being arrogant.
    And arrogance causes concern for the truthfulness of his claims.

    • Seeker says:

      You can see cute or arrogance in his answer all you want. But if you put personal feelings aside, the answer could be simply saying… ‘maybe I don’t want to answer your question, and give you an advantage.’
      If the first thing that pops in your head is Truthfulness… why bother with the challenge at all.

  41. locolobo says:

    Or, perhaps it is giant-minded searchers over-complicating a poetic rendering of a simple task.

    Would not Brown be filed under (put in below) “B”??? 🙂

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  43. Brian g says:

    Top of El Capitan. around the top of horestail falls.

    read the poem backwards and describes it it to a “T”

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